Beginner Having Problem With A Singer 45K25.

[Edvin]

Hello!

I have just taken a big step forward and got myself a sewing machine, a Singer 45k25.

I looked around a lot before buying but my knowledge of sewing machines are very limited I'm afraid. This machine came from a fellow (professional) leather worker so I thought it would probably be in better shape than one from an outhouse somewhere. I got it for about 400$, not very expensive but still not cheap.

Unfortunately I have trouble getting it to run smoothly. My thread tangles and misses stitches and I can't reverse.

I tried it before I bought it but when I got home and tried sewing, the machine gives me uneven stitches, sometimes no stitches at all or headace in general.

I found a short Owners manual and a service manual online but I haven't figured out how to tweak everything.

First I used the same linen thread I use when I hand stitch but this didn't work at all. Now I use a thinner thread I have a whole bag of, it's linen and the roll says 50/3. Not sure what this means. I got a bunch of needles with the 45k25. There is a really small print that says 200, 180 and 160.

English is not my first language but I hope the pictures are clear and shows my problem. What should I do to get the machine running?

Thankful for all help, this forum is outstanding and one of my main reasons to getting this Singer 45k25 in the first place!

I also made a short video, I hope this help trouble shooting:

http://youtu.be/nR96MOzouWk

[Edvin]

Oh, I forgot to add that this is the kind of things I would like to to on this new machine instead of by hand. Each bag takes a bit too long time now.

I usually use normal waxed linen thread and a pair of butted needles. I do not know what size this would translate to in "sewing machine"-terms.

[mikesmith648]

Tot me it looks like your thread is way to small for the needle size you're using. Try a 207 thread. I think the more experienced sewing professionals will chime in with more soon. Mike

[CustomDoug]

You didn't say which needle you are using in this video and pictures but you said you got the following with the purchase of the machine. A 200 needle would be for #207-#277 poly thread, A 180 needle would be for #138-#207 poly thread, A 160 needle would best be for #138. Three cord linen thread is equivalent to between #138-#207 poly thread SO.... try it again but this time use the needle that says "160" on it. Let us know how that does.

4 cord linen is equivalent to #207-#277 poly (your 200 needle for that). 6 cord linen is like #346 poly thread, just for reference.

BTW, $400 for that machine in it's condition seems like a great deal to me. BTW, I think the linen choice is going to be nice, though most others will probably disagree for reasons related to strength. It should look nice, but it looks like you're using unwaxed thread so you may want to mount a wax pot on the top of the machine.. then have to get some wax and add it to your pot. This will strengthen the seem a lot.... may even be necessary for the linen thread to run in this machine correctly (I don't know for sure). I've been planning to do the same and just haven't gotten around to it yet, though I already have the original wax pot. As for now, try the smallest needle.

Edited September 1, 2012 by CustomDoug

[CustomDoug]

Edvin - also make sure you are installing the needle with the long vertical slit (I forget the name of it... fid?) to the left hand side. The smaller "notch" where the eye of the needle is, should be on the right hand side.

Edited September 2, 2012 by CustomDoug

[Sylvia]

I don't think you have it threaded correctly. Seems to me you have to do a 360 around that tension knob. Do you have your manuals that came with the machine?

[electrathon]

To me it looks like the top tension is too loose and or the bottom is too tight. And you have an oversized needle for the thread.

Just my guess, I am not an expert.

[Trox]

Hi,

First of all, throw away all old needles. Buy new needles the right system, is it 328? It comes in different types of leather cutting points, however if you want to back tack use spear pointed. The leather needles often cut your thread when back tacking (the reverse locking stitch) Old needles are no good, they might look all right and still cause a stitch error. Old thread can also cause frying or be to stiff for the machine to handle. Linen thread should work well, save it for later when you know your machine. Buy some polyester thread Aman Serafil or Coats Gral, (those will work well for your machine) bonded nylon will also work. Sizes metric (like we use in Europe) Tkt 20, 15 and 10 (10 is the thickest) Needles 160, 180, 200 and 230. Those will cover the thread sizes I suggested. When you have no old stuff that can cause a miss stitch, thread your machine right. Look at Toledo (Cowboy) sewing machines home page. You will find a video on threading the Cowboy 4500, (and is the same machine as a Cowboy 2500, GA 5-1 or Ferdco Baby Bull) yours threads the same way.

I see a mistake in your threading, after the last top tension disc. The thread has to go directly from the pin to the take up spring. Not over the take up spring stop as it does now. It looks like you use the wrong needle size for the thread too; the relation has to be right. For a tkt 15 (metric) you can use a 180 needle, Tkt 10 a 200 to 230 needle (size Nm 230 = 2, 3 mm tick). Add some thread tension, you must adjust top and bottom thread tension right. The thread loop has to be in the middle of the material, and your stitches should be tighter. Often old shuttles have bad tension springs and work best with thicker thread. Check your bobbin tension spring, if necessary change it (take it of and look for grooves in the springs backside). Did you remember to thread your thread one and a half time around the last (upper) tension disc? To eliminate other causes for stitching errors, take this above mention steps. If you have manual read it, if not find one for a similar machine or ask for one in the forum. It should be something for this machine; it has been the most used saddler machine for half a century. Here is a Singer 45 clone machine threading video

You can look at manuals for this machine; it is the same as yours. Try this, and search the LW forum base for related topics about thread tension and so on. Remember to hold your thread end when you start sewing, if not you will have a backlash in the shuttle. Good luck with your new machine.Trox

Hello!

I have just taken a big step forward and got myself a sewing machine, a Singer 45k25.

I looked around a lot before buying but my knowledge of sewing machines are very limited I'm afraid. This machine came from a fellow (professional) leather worker so I thought it would probably be in better shape than one from an outhouse somewhere. I got it for about 400$, not very expensive but still not cheap.

Unfortunately I have trouble getting it to run smoothly. My thread tangles and misses stitches and I can't reverse.

I tried it before I bought it but when I got home and tried sewing, the machine gives me uneven stitches, sometimes no stitches at all or headace in general.

I found a short Owners manual and a service manual online but I haven't figured out how to tweak everything.

First I used the same linen thread I use when I hand stitch but this didn't work at all. Now I use a thinner thread I have a whole bag of, it's linen and the roll says 50/3. Not sure what this means. I got a bunch of needles with the 45k25. There is a really small print that says 200, 180 and 160.

English is not my first language but I hope the pictures are clear and shows my problem. What should I do to get the machine running?

Thankful for all help, this forum is outstanding and one of my main reasons to getting this Singer 45k25 in the first place!

I also made a short video, I hope this help trouble shooting:

http://youtu.be/nR96MOzouWk

[jimsaddler]

Easy answer! Practice, Practice, Practice. Then when you think you've practiced enough, do some more practice!!!

Several points I see. your thread should go around the second tension roller a second time to create even pull. you have to perfect your position on turning corners (the needle should have just picked up the thread before making a turn) Stop with the Thread take-up arm at its highest point so the is no slack to pick up. also hold the ends of your threads firmly when making the first few stitches to stop tails getting under the needle plate. Oil the machine regularly.

This looks like it is in very good order and should do the work you want to do easily. The old 45K25 is still one of the best Leather Machines that was ever produced. I still like them for decorative stitching on Patent Leather up to 3/8" thick. The Stand is a Gem, made the way they all should be made! 4 cord or #18 Linen thread is what they were made for so perservere and you will learn that you have a good one. Also please remember that the roller Foot is pressing on the one side so you have to counter by ever so slightly putting pressure on the other side as you feed it through. So go for it and practice, practice and practice, then when you are sure you have it right, have another practice.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

Hi,

First of all, throw away all old needles. Buy new needles the right system, is it 328? It comes in different types of leather cutting points, however if you want to back tack use spear pointed. The leather needles often cut your thread when back tacking (the reverse locking stitch) Old needles are no good, they might look all right and still cause a stitch error. Old thread can also cause frying or be to stiff for the machine to handle. Linen thread should work well, save it for later when you know your machine. Buy some polyester thread Aman Serafil or Coats Gral, (those will work well for your machine) bonded nylon will also work. Sizes metric (like we use in Europe) Tkt 20, 15 and 10 (10 is the thickest) Needles 160, 180, 200 and 230. Those will cover the thread sizes I suggested. When you have no old stuff that can cause a miss stitch, thread your machine right. Look at Toledo (Cowboy) sewing machines home page. You will find a video on threading the Cowboy 4500, (and is the same machine as a Cowboy 2500, GA 5-1 or Ferdco Baby Bull) yours threads the same way.

I see a mistake in your threading, after the last top tension disc. The thread has to go directly from the pin to the take up spring. Not over the take up spring stop as it does now. It looks like you use the wrong needle size for the thread too; the relation has to be right. For a tkt 15 (metric) you can use a 180 needle, Tkt 10 a 200 to 230 needle (size Nm 230 = 2, 3 mm tick). Add some thread tension, you must adjust top and bottom thread tension right. The thread loop has to be in the middle of the material, and your stitches should be tighter. Often old shuttles have bad tension springs and work best with thicker thread. Check your bobbin tension spring, if necessary change it (take it of and look for grooves in the springs backside). Did you remember to thread your thread one and a half time around the last (upper) tension disc? To eliminate other causes for stitching errors, take this above mention steps. If you have manual read it, if not find one for a similar machine or ask for one in the forum. It should be something for this machine; it has been the most used saddler machine for half a century. Here is a Singer 45 clone machine threading video

You can look at manuals for this machine; it is the same as yours. Try this, and search the LW forum base for related topics about thread tension and so on. Remember to hold your thread end when you start sewing, if not you will have a backlash in the shuttle. Good luck with your new machine.Trox

[Edvin]

Hi guys!

I cannot thank you enough for all the pointers. It seems my thread is to small and my needle is to large so I will try and find some thicker thread and order some smaller needles on Ebay.

I would never in a million years figured the thread should be wound twice around the second roll. The owners manual was not very clear on the subject.

Am I right if I think I should use 20-thread with 160, 15 with 180 and 10 with 230? Should I get one thickness and stick with it?

Is pre waxed linen thread OK to use in the machine? It seems to me it would gunk up all the rollers?

Again, thank you so much. Now it's back to the workshop and trying again.

[Trox]

Hi Jim, although I think you meant to quote Edwin and not me. I agree with you Jim, this are all issues practice and more practice will solve.

Thanks

Trox

Easy answer! Practice, Practice, Practice. Then when you think you've practiced enough, do some more practice!!!

Several points I see. your thread should go around the second tension roller a second time to create even pull. you have to perfect your position on turning corners (the needle should have just picked up the thread before making a turn) Stop with the Thread take-up arm at its highest point so the is no slack to pick up. also hold the ends of your threads firmly when making the first few stitches to stop tails getting under the needle plate. Oil the machine regularly.

This looks like it is in very good order and should do the work you want to do easily. The old 45K25 is still one of the best Leather Machines that was ever produced. I still like them for decorative stitching on Patent Leather up to 3/8" thick. The Stand is a Gem, made the way they all should be made! 4 cord or #18 Linen thread is what they were made for so perservere and you will learn that you have a good one. Also please remember that the roller Foot is pressing on the one side so you have to counter by ever so slightly putting pressure on the other side as you feed it through. So go for it and practice, practice and practice, then when you are sure you have it right, have another practice.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[Iron Pounder]

Very nice machine!! I would love to have one.

[Trox]

Hi Edvin

Not two times, it has to go one and a half time around second tension disc. I have seen pictures off machines with wax apparatus, heated with gas to melt the wax. If you use waxed thread, your machines will be full of wax that hardens and jams up your machine. Then you have to warm it up with the gas heater every morning to get it to sew. I have no experience with use of waxed thread, and I would not use it in any of my machines. There are other kinds of machine they used wax in, I never seen it in a lockstitch machine. There are some pinned topics in this forum about thread and needle sizes, read them, they will answer your questions.

Here are some 45K machines

Trox

http://www.industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/used/used-singers/45k.htm

Hi guys!

I cannot thank you enough for all the pointers. It seems my thread is to small and my needle is to large so I will try and find some thicker thread and order some smaller needles on Ebay.

I would never in a million years figured the thread should be wound twice around the second roll. The owners manual was not very clear on the subject.

Am I right if I think I should use 20-thread with 160, 15 with 180 and 10 with 230? Should I get one thickness and stick with it?

Is pre waxed linen thread OK to use in the machine? It seems to me it would gunk up all the rollers?

Again, thank you so much. Now it's back to the workshop and trying again.

[CustomDoug]

I have seen pictures off machines with wax apparatus, heated with gas to melt the wax. If you use waxed thread, your machines will be full of wax that hardens and jams up your machine. Then you have to warm it up with the gas heater every morning to get it to sew. I have no experience with use of waxed thread, and I would not use it in any of my machines. There are other kinds of machine they used wax in, I never seen it in a lockstitch machine.

Trox

The 45K25 came from the factory with a wax pot or at least some did (mine has it's original still mounted as I mentioned earlier) and as Mr. Saddler said earlier, it was meant for 4 Cord Linen. So I think this is the ideal machine for what the original poster is trying to do. As for the wax "clogging up the machine"... well, I'd think you'd have to clean the tension disks, thread spring and thread retainer just above the needle on a regular basis - but the internals of the machine should not be effected in any way, assuming the bobbin thread is not waxed. Removing tension disks is not a big deal, but probably a bit of a hassle if done regularly. I still think it would be worth the effort. By the way Campbell-Bosworth sells the wax needled, it's called "Thread Lubricant" and is water soluble (can be remelted by adding hot water), they say it's good for edge burnishing too. Here's the Link: http://www.campbell-randall.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=lubricant&product_id=526

This will strengthen the seem a lot.... may even be necessary for the linen thread to run in this machine correctly (I don't know for sure). I've been planning to do the same and just haven't gotten around to it yet, though I already have the original wax pot. ...

4 cord or #18 Linen thread is what they were made for so perservere and you will learn that you have a good one. ...

Kindest Regards. Jim Saddler.

[Trox]

Hi,

Bees wax and thread lubricant has two different missions, I also have lube pots on my four heavy stitchers (Adler’s 5, 204, 105 and my TSC 441 machine)

The only one of my machine who really gets a smoking hot needle is my 441 clone, this machine needs to cool down the needle or else the thread melts. This is done by reducing the thread friction by oil or silicone thread lube.

Bees wax for hand sewing has an other mission, to help closing and protecting the stitches.

On early leather sewing machines, they had heated wax apparatus just for this purpose.

I have bought old sewing machines that do not turn because of old hardened grease, bees wax hardens fast. It will not only mess up your tension disc, it will mess up the shuttle and all related parts too. It has to be clean out after sewing, or warmed up by a flame to get liquid again.

Linen thread is a very good thread for sewing machines, very soft. However, with beeswax it will stick to your shuttle causing stitch errors. I would not try that with my machines, I use only white sewing machine oil in them.

Just my 2 cents

Trox

[CustomDoug]

Hi,Bees wax and thread lubricant has two different missions, I also have lube pots on my four heavy stitchers (Adler's 5, 204, 105 and my TSC 441 machine)

The only one of my machine who really gets a smoking hot needle is my 441 clone, this machine needs to cool down the needle or else the thread melts. This is done by reducing the thread friction by oil or silicone thread lube.

Bees wax for hand sewing has an other mission, to help closing and protecting the stitches.

On early leather sewing machines, they had heated wax apparatus just for this purpose.

I have bought old sewing machines that do not turn because of old hardened grease, bees wax hardens fast. It will not only mess up your tension disc, it will mess up the shuttle and all related parts too. It has to be clean out after sewing, or warmed up by a flame to get liquid again.

Linen thread is a very good thread for sewing machines, very soft. However, with beeswax it will stick to your shuttle causing stitch errors. I would not try that with my machines, I use only white sewing machine oil in them.

Just my 2 cents

Trox

Yea I wouldn't recommend using beeswax either but this other stuff is parafin wax. The official description of this product is "Water soluble Stitching Wax". I know it's not beeswax, I'd imagine this stuff would be gentler but who knows.. I'll post my results once I've tried it. BTW, I recently read a thread here called "Reasons for using Linen" or something like that, where someone had a lot of experience using liquid wax in an older machine with good results (besides the mess). To each his own.

Edited September 3, 2012 by CustomDoug

[Wizcrafts]

Yea I wouldn't recommend using beeswax either but this other stuff is parafin wax. The official description of this product is "Water soluble Stitching Wax". I know it's not beeswax, I'd imagine this stuff would be gentler but who knows.. I'll post my results once I've tried it. BTW, I recently read a thread here called "Reasons for using Linen" or something like that, where someone had a lot of experience using liquid wax in an older machine with good results (besides the mess). To each his own.

Are you referring to "Lax Wax?" This is made by Campbell-Bosworth, for use in their Union Lockstitch and Campbell-Randall needle and awl stitchers, or in shoe sole stitchers. I use it in my Union Lockstitch sometimes, when I use glazed linen thread. It hardens after sitting in the wax pot, so either use it regularly, or clean out the post before it congeals, when you are done using linen thread. Stick with Barbour's Irish Linen Thread, also sold by Campbell-Bosworth/Randall.

Ii you do run liquid wax in a closed eye machine, do a thorough cleaning between uses. This includes opening up the hook, bobbin case and shuttle race, as well as all guides and tensioners.

[CustomDoug]

Yep I believe the 'lax wax' is what it's called, though Campbell-Bosworth doesn't call it that on their site that I can see. It's just liquid paraffin wax that's water soluble, called Thread Lubricant. Spending some time cleaning will just have to be the trade off.

Edvin - be sure to let us know how things go with your 45K25 when you get a chance. If you decide to go the liquid wax route, you'll need to find an old machine being parted out to get the pot. If you find one let me know - I've been looking for an original bobbin winder.

[Trox]

Thank you Wiz,

this is about the same I was trying to tell them with some other words. Let’s use our time for something else please. Our Swedish friend Edvin here has purchased the old saddlers Iron horse, he is a very skilled hand stitcher. I guess he wants to speed things up a bit time is money.

However, the sewing machine cannot produce the same durable seam as two-thread hand sewing, sewn on leather. A tight correct laid lock stitch seam, closed with a hammer will do just fine.

I give the customer a choice of Hand sewn with waxed thread or machine sewn. I tell them the advantages and price differences; very few want to pay for the extra hours of hand sewing.

If they do, I do not mind doing some hands sewing, I find it relaxing.

Trox

Are you referring to "Lax Wax?" This is made by Campbell-Bosworth, for use in their Union Lockstitch and Campbell-Randall needle and awl stitchers, or in shoe sole stitchers. I use it in my Union Lockstitch sometimes, when I use glazed linen thread. It hardens after sitting in the wax pot, so either use it regularly, or clean out the post before it congeals, when you are done using linen thread. Stick with Barbour's Irish Linen Thread, also sold by Campbell-Bosworth/Randall.

Ii you do run liquid wax in a closed eye machine, do a thorough cleaning between uses. This includes opening up the hook, bobbin case and shuttle race, as well as all guides and tensioners.

[Edvin]

I just wanted to take time to thank you all properly for the fantastic help! I haven't had much time to play with Singer due to a hectic work schedule but I've ordered new needles and synthetic thread to practice with.

It is good to hear from the experts that the Singer 45K25 is a good, solid machine. I was afraid I paid to much.

Talked to the seller but he didn't have the lube pot. It seems the machine is clean on the inside, I'm a bit scared getting a lot of wax inside it.

As of now, it takes a lot more time sewing on the machine than for hand stitching but I guess that's just practice!

Once again, thank you all for your time. It was really helpful.

[ukfossil]

I think you have your thread controler set wrong,

try like mine and see if it helps,

good luck, mick

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

What Jim Said!!!!!!!

When I sell machines to novices I can always tell those who listen to my advice as they actually spend time practicing (staring with no thread) and learn to guide the work ring me and tell me that they are very happy. Those who just try to sew their major project as soon as they get the machine ring me and complain.

This is an excellent looking machine and should give you decades of pleasure even when you add a 441 clone to your collection.

[Les No6]

Hi Edvin

I have a 45K wax pot laying around somewhere Ill fish it out and if you send me your address Ill pop it in the post for you. Waxed thread won’t work as to liquid wax and thread lube it is good practice to lubricate the thread on heavy machines light paraffin oil (readily available as baby oil) is an excellent clean thread lube, vegetable oil can also be used but do’s dry in time and needs cleaning, my personal favourite is linseed oil (thread varnish) there’s extra work involved with this the machine needs cleaning twice weekly if you are oiling the shuttle thread this has to be used the same day, and when you use the machine on a new day you need to pull the top thread through and remove the thread with dry oil. And finally liquid wax can be made by dissolving paraffin wax in white spirit with due care. UKfossil is right the thread take up is in the wrong position and most probably creating the problems you are having.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Les No6

[CustomDoug]

Hi Edvin

I have a 45K wax pot laying around somewhere Ill fish it out and if you send me your address Ill pop it in the post for you. Waxed thread won’t work as to liquid wax and thread lube it is good practice to lubricate the thread on heavy machines light paraffin oil (readily available as baby oil) is an excellent clean thread lube, vegetable oil can also be used but do’s dry in time and needs cleaning, my personal favourite is linseed oil (thread varnish) there’s extra work involved with this the machine needs cleaning twice weekly if you are oiling the shuttle thread this has to be used the same day, and when you use the machine on a new day you need to pull the top thread through and remove the thread with dry oil. And finally liquid wax can be made by dissolving paraffin wax in white spirit with due care. UKfossil is right the thread take up is in the wrong position and most probably creating the problems you are having.

I did not know baby oil and paraffin oil were the same thing... will these oils not stain the leathers? Also, what's "white spirit"? On the same note though, I read an interesting idea somewhere that mentioned someone used a mixture of Paraffin and liquid starch in their wax pot. I assumed it was paraffin wax but now that you've mentioned it Les maybe it was oil.

Edited October 4, 2012 by CustomDoug

[Les No6]

I did not know baby oil and paraffin oil were the same thing... will these oils not stain the leathers? Also, what's "white spirit"? On the same note though, I read an interesting idea somewhere that mentioned someone used a mixture of Paraffin and liquid starch in their wax pot. I assumed it was paraffin wax but now that you've mentioned it Les maybe it was oil.

Yes baby oil is high grade paraffin oil, oil will stain some leathers the thread should be just damped with oil some machines have some form of wiper in the wax pot to remove excess oil, pots without these can have a sponge placed in the bottom and the thread picks up oil from the sponge. White spirit also known as turpentine substitute, mineral spirit, paint thinner, it’s a paraffin distillate (basically paraffin with the oils removed) paraffin can be used in its place however here in the UK paraffin is ridiculously priced and I object to paying more for paraffin than diesel out of the pump which is a higher grade fuel oil and subject to large road fuel duty!! (Rant over). The mixture of paraffin and liquid starch was probably paraffin a mixture popular among corner stitches in the UK was soap flakes soaked overnight then paraffin added; paraffin alone can also be used. I wouldn’t advise the use of mix’s containing solvents on manmade threads.