Couple Of Questons From A Ne Guy

[cleanview]

Thanks to EVERYONE that offered advice. Each offered good advice, for which I am greatfull.

I overlooked "countrytrash" post. I am going to let the finished spray dry overnight and see if that wont solve the problem. Makes sense to me.

Brent

[dickf]

After I posted last night, I went into the shop. My bottle of M&G was still there, albeit covered in leather dust. I bought it specifically to test as a topcoat.

I cut 2 strips from W&C skirting and labeled them.

Test pieces with no finish.

Swatches after an application of product (still wet).

Swatches on my desk at work the next day (today). Note how the M&G has already started to develop tiny cracks simply from riding in my jeans pocket this morning.

M&G swatch slightly bent.

A600 swatch bent at much more of an angle

After dropping a few drops of water on each. The water goes right through the M&G and instantly starts turning the leather darker. It simply beads and sits on the A600 swatch.

This is a video showing the water from each piece dripped on one another. It also clearly shows how the water penetrates the M&G as soon as it touches it. (Click the image to see the clip)

Swatch after the water was removed. The wet area feels tacky and now has a white haze that you can see in the photo below. We'll see if that goes away after the leather underneath has dried.

Everyone is free to use what they want and make what they want. I'm not trying to say that my way of doing things is right or better.

When it comes to Angelus 600 vs. Mop & Glo for an acrylic topcoat for leather, it's pretty obvious which is more effective.

Chris

Edited September 11, 2012 by dickf

[particle]

Wow - excellent demonstration Chris - thanks for sharing!

Brent - when I airbrush, I spray 4 fairly heavy coats to make sure I get as much penetration as possible with the airbrush method. I don't allow any drying time between coats - I just spray up and down in one direction, wait for the dye to absorb into the leather (doesn't look wet on the surface), then I spray up and down in the other direction. I do this process 4 times, then allow it to dry overnight. You can buff it the next day, once the leather has dried thoroughly - if you buff it too soon, the leather is very susceptible to damage via stray fingernail scrapes, tool marks, work surface impressions, etc.

Dip dyeing is undoubtedly going to offer better penetration, but it will also result in a much darker final product, and it will use a TON of dye because it absorbs so rapidly into the leather. Lots of makers use the dipping method - I just haven't had good success with it so I favor the airbrush. Dip dying takes a very long time to air out. I let some leather that was dip dyed sit for around 3 days on my bench and it still had a very strong smell. I buffed the snot out of it, then assembled. There was so much pigment in the leather it turned all my natural thread a nasty orange color (dyed Saddle Tan) as I stitched it. People will probably say I left it in the dye too long, but I poured my dye in a tray, laid my flat pieces of leather in the dye, then instantly pulled them out - they probably weren't submerged more than maybe 3 seconds total. I did not dilute the dye - perhaps that's some of my problem.

Here is a photo showing my first attempt - I ended up remaking the entire order because I wasn't happy with it and didn't feel right sending it to the customer. It also seemed like it had a negative effect on the leather itself.

And here is the set after I remade it.

[mlapaglia]

After I posted last night, I went into the shop. My bottle of M&G was still there, albeit covered in leather dust. I bought it specifically to test as a topcoat.

I cut 2 strips from W&C skirting and labeled them.

Test pieces with no finish.

Swatches on my desk at work the next day (today). Note how the M&G has already started to develop tiny cracks simply from riding in my jeans pocket this morning.

M&G swatch slightly bent.

After dropping a few drops of water on each. The water goes right through the M&G and instantly starts turning the leather darker. It simply beads and sits on the A600 swatch.

This is a video showing the water from each piece dripped on one another. It also clearly shows how the water penetrates the M&G as soon as it touches it. (Click the image to see the clip)

Swatch after the water was removed. The wet area feels tacky and now has a white haze that you can see in the photo below. We'll see if that goes away after the leather underneath has

Everyone is free to use what they want and make what they want. I'm not trying to say that my way of doing things is right or better.

When it comes to Angelus 600 vs. Mop & Glo for an acrylic topcoat for leather, it's pretty obvious which is more effective.

Chris

Thanks for the info. One question. Did you use the M&G full strength or 50/50 with water?

Michael

Edited September 11, 2012 by mlapaglia

[dickf]

Thanks for the info. One question. Did you use the M&G full strength or 50/50 with water?

Michael

I used it full strength straight from the bottle, just like I do with all dyes and finishes.

[cleanview]

Cool. Lots of good info.

What is the reason for the mop and glo being 50/50 water? Do you think that it would change any of the results?

Thanks again for all of the responses.

Brent

[mlapaglia]

I used it full strength straight from the bottle, just like I do with all dyes and finishes.

That may by why it cracked like it did. The way to use it is to dilute it 50/50 with water. Then apply 2 light coats. Let it penetrate between coats and then follow, when dry, with Kiwi neutral polish and buff to a mellow finish. The stuff can be wiped on with a rag dampened with the stuff, sprayed with an airbrush and even an old Windex pump sprayer will do the job. If a drip appears, just wipe with a rag or even your finger. Streaking is almost impossible. a quart of the stuff makes a half gallon of finish for about $8.00.

The key is that it has to be cut with water 50/50 or it cracks like crazy.

A quote from Katsass on the start of using mop&glow, from another post

Years ago (40 at least) I used nothing but Tandy's 'Neat Sheen', then one day, finding that I had either run out of it, or left the top off, or some other dumb-assed trick (I don't quite remember now) I had to go in search of an alternative. I live out in a desert area, a good 40 miles away from the closest store that could supply the stuff, and I REALLY didn't want to make that trip for a 4oz, $5.00 bottle of the goop. Ma Kat had been cleaning up the joint and had used 'Mop and Glow' on the kitchen floor. While squirting the stuff out of the bottle, I noticed that it looked a lot like the Neat Sheen. Reading the contents and doing a bit of research, I found that Neat Sheen and Mop and Glow are (were) almost identical. I experimented and found that a 50/50 mix of M&G and water produced the same finish as the Neat Sheen. I swiped her jug of Mop and Glow and have used the stuff as a finish on my holsters ever since. Over the years I have read the data sheet on Fiebing's 'sheen' stuff, Resolene, and any other 'sheen' type product I ran across --- all are basically the same --- an acrylic finish product.

[mlapaglia]

Cool. Lots of good info.

What is the reason for the mop and glo being 50/50 water? Do you think that it would change any of the results?

Thanks again for all of the responses.

Brent

It dilutes it to the correct strength to use on leather. If you don't cut it 50/50 it goes on too thick and cracks.

[katsass]

OK -- From the grump: First,I think there has been a bit of misunderstanding re: my use of Mop & Glow. I mix it 50/50 with water, apply with a an airbrush (but an old Windex pump also works well). I apply to warm leather and allow to dry for a couple of minutes, then follow with a second shot. I MIST the stuff on - lightly, this allows it to penetrate the top layer of leather.I follow the last application with a hand rubbed (no applicator - fingers only) thin coat of Kiwi 'Neutral' shoe wax, buffed out by hand with a soft cloth.

Secondly, as to drilling: I use this method to teach (those that will put up with me) initial stitching. A drill press will NOT work for my method. A high speed rotary (Dremel type) tool is necessary. A drill press simply will not turn up fast enough to work with a small bit, as the bit will bend and/or wander all over hell I use nothing larger than a 3/64" bit - a 1/16" is too damned large. I have the person drill a few (10 -12) holes in a marked, gouge channel - place the piece in a pony or horse, and have them open the holes with an awl - properly. The drilled holes are nothing more than 'pilot' holes, to give the person starting out, a way to feel where and how the awl works. They drill a few, stitch a few - and pretty soon they just start poking with the awl. It's a learning tool which seems to remove the 'deflated, and demoralizing effect' of my comments on p#%%-poor initial awl work, and gives them something to look at with a little pride - when starting out. A little moistening of the leather, a run with the overstitch, and VOILA - the holes more or less disappear and a (sort-of) decent piece of stitching is the result. I feel that it is better to boost the ego of a person new to stitching, rather than continually bite them - (verbally, that is)

Now, I'm not saying that what I do is correct or the best way - it's just how I do things, but it has (in the case of M&G) done well for me over the past 40 or more years - without cracking or spider-webbing, and teaching stitching my way seems to produce decent stitching a bit quicker than other methods. Mike

P.S. Here is a holster that my (16 year old) grandson made - the very first thing he ever did with leather. It's stitched as I mention - done COMPLETELY by him with just a growl from me now and then. He's the one that started calling me a "grumpy old man".

Edited September 12, 2012 by katsass

[Colt Hammerless]

Dickf, that's a really interesting demo of the the two finishes. About 10 days ago I made a couple of samples to try Mop-n-Glo compared to Angelus 600. I took two chunks of Craftsman grade Hermann Oak (both pieces from the same hide) and dyed them with Fiebing's Pro Oil Black. After letting them dry for 24 hours, I gave each a good coat of neatsfoot oil. Several days later, I finished both pieces, one with Angelus 600 and the other Mop-n-Glo. I applied them both the same way, cut 50/50 with water, and sprayed on with an airbrush. I did the same number of coats per piece (four if memory serves.) I was going to keep them cinched down against my workout shorts with a belt while I worked out in order to do an accelerated test on them to see how they help up. But, I forgot about them for a while, until I saw your pics and video yesterday. So, I went out and started pouring water on them. With both pieces the water just beaded on the surface. I left several drops of water on them for over an hour. Both pieces still had the water beading on the surface, with very very minor "staining". I put that in quotes because it seemed more like a residue of the water that was still on the surface, not really sure if it was actually penetrating the finish. I did notice that the Angelus 600 coated piece had less water beading on the surface and more "staining" than the Mop-n-Glo coated piece. I also don't have any cracking with the Mop-n-Glo either, even when bending the piece. I'm not sure why you and I are having such vastly different results. Could it be because my pieces had cured longer? Maybe it's because I treated the pieces with neatsfoot oil, and that helped with water resistence. I'm not ready to use Mop-n-Glo as a finish yet, but I'm definitely going to test it further.

Paul