Hand Stitching Time

[strudell]

Hi all, I've followed many debaters discussing the various merits of hand stitching with an awl, a multi prong punch, or dremel/other prepunching methods. I've been stitching with an awl in a pony for a short while now and I enjoy it but it is slow; at 6SPI I reckon I hit 24"/hour or so.

Is this slow? Can this method get speedy? How fast do you folks using other methods get going? Does your clientele pay for this reduced efficiency?

Any input will surely be appreciated. Thanks!

[katsass]

FWIW from the grumpy old guy; Hand stitching isn't quick - - period. Now, Ray at Lobo Gunleather has (I understand) some folks that hand stitch pretty damned quick and well, but not nearly as quickly as a machine can. For his production stuff, he uses machines, but for custom stuff, hand stitching comes into play. I expect that is the way most outfits operate. I'm just a dinky one-man operation that makes no production items - - all of my stuff is custom work, I even toss every pattern I draw after the item is completed. I hand stitch each item made, and, as a custom-made item, my customer knows and expects that it will be completed with my grubby fingers pulling the thread. That's just part of what he/she pays for. To speed up hand stitching a bit, one can punch, poke, drill or gnaw all of the holes first, then go to sticking needles and pulling thread. JMHO Mike

Edited October 24, 2012 by katsass

[renegadelizard]

6 SPI/24" per hour is what?..6 stitches every 2.5 minutes....that is pretty fast all things considered, ...when i handsew, i usually lay out my stitchlines, groove, mark the hole location, awl until i nod off from boredom, wake up and start sewing...now, just the sewing alone, i was getting 5-6 stitches per minute...but when you add in the other steps, the total time per stitch extends dramatically...but like Mike said, there is no such thing as fast hand stitching..

[St8LineGunsmith]

No hand stitching aint fast in any stretch of the term.

I have a method that speed up the process and works out rather well for me, YMMV.

1. I will match up the parts to be stitched together as close as possible then

lay out the stitch line and groove the line. I will then mark the stitch holes

with my overstitch wheel.

2. I glue the stitch seam and bond the two parts to be stitched up together

and allow the glue time to cure.

3. I drill out the holes with a dremel if i am making a saddle stitch.

I will use a four hole punch or multiple prong lacing chissel for lacing projects

the type of lacing dictates the type of hole making tools I use.

I always use a stitching pony and wear gloves with the fingers cut out and stitching

palms to push the needles thru and I hold on to a pair of small pliers to grab the

needle and awl handy to straighten out any misaligned holes when the needle will

not push through.

what works well for me may not necessarily work as good for you you might have to

make changes in the sequence of procedures for it to work better for you.

no two people do things exactly the same way.

[ramrod]

yup....it ain't fast no matter what. after i groove it, wheel it and make my holes, i can get what lizard gets - about 6 per minute.

if you read stohlman's book, they say that speed will come with time. but i feel i'm faster if i punch the holes first. i'd like to pay homage to the old timers and punch the hole, stitch and repeat (while not dropping the needle) but i never taught myself that way.

funny thing - when i punch all of the holes first, i thought that i was the ONLY one that did it that way.

[gary]

I thought I was doing well at 8 spi doing 12" per hour. And I do it the 'traditional' way with stab - sew the stitch - stab - next stitch - etc. Wish I could double my speed to 24" an hour! I tried stabbing all the holes first but I ended up with a wavy stitch line and it looked really tatty so I went back to the way I was taught. Gary

[jimsaddler]

Proper Hand Sewing usually runs at aprox 3 to 3.2 stitches per minute if done with the Awl and Needles being the only implements. That is at #8 per inch. Pre Drilling or punching holes and the like is much slower and inefficient. All good stitching takes is practice and patience.

I used to have Ladies stitching for me who would average up to 30inches per hour at #8spi all day on heavy 10-12mm Harness Traces. Also they were as neat on the back as the front. The secret was loud Church Music! They just did it mechanically while listening to the Music.

240 stitches every hour for 8 hours per day and then do 4 hours overtime after a meal. So come on you Stitchers give it a go, there's only one method that is worth using and that is use the Awl to make the holes and don't put the needles down. It's the fastest way and the best.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[St8LineGunsmith]

Jim I beg to differ concerning your comment about pre drilling holes being slow and inefficient

I am not knocking the old tried and true method of stabbing the stitch holes with a stitch awl

it has been done that way for a few centurys and i did it that way for what seemed to be for

centurys for me as well however i found using a drill press and flex shaft on a dremel to pre

drill all the stitch holes is easier on the hands, less stress and speeds up the process.

I think it is more a issue of prefrence other than being a issue of "proper stitching methods"

if stabbing and stitching was the proper method then these leather craft kits that tandy puts out

needs to be issued a stitching awl instead of pre drilled holes in the leather...

ever try to lace a project by the stab and stitch method?

no body does it that way for a reason, because it would be hard to do that way and would take forever

to lace up a project that way

the project is pre punched prior to lacing so then how would pre drilling or pre punching

be proper for one method and improper for the other?

[TwinOaks]

Tandy does it because it 1- lowers the price of the kit as 3 cents worth of needles and a dime's worth of thread are all that are required to 'complete' it, and 2- greatly simplifies the kit to appeal to people that have zero experience in leather crafting. Since the clicker dies can have the holes as part of the die, there's no additional cost after the initial set up for the die. It's strictly an economic factor.....and it does sound kind of strange referring to anything Tandy as 'proper'.

Now, for lacing, there are other factors. For everything except a running stitch/lace and double/triple loop, the lace will penetrate a hole at least twice. For those, a hole is easier to work with. For the single passes, I think a slot cut with nippers looks a lot better - the lace just disappears into the leather. On corners, even with single pass patterns, you end up going through a few holes multiple times. Lace used on edges is also substantially bigger than thread (usually), so a larger penetration is physically required to keep from crimping the lace.

Now, the REASON an awl is preferred over a drilled or punched out hole is that an awl's hole will close up around the thread to keep out dirt, grime, and gunk that can deteriorate the thread. The awl pierces the leather and more or less 'shoves' the leather out of the way....and it'll move back in time to where only a slit marking the width of the awl will be visible. A drilled or punched hole removes the leather from the hole, and while it may close up a bit, it'll never fully close.

However....if you find the drilled hole method best for you, I won't tell you it's "wrong". Nor will I even attempt to criticize the 'production' method chosen. We all have our own ways of doing this hobby and that's one of the nice things about it. Leather would get pretty boring if EVERYTHING was Sheridan carved, with 8 spi stitching, and always dark brown.

And incidentally, some of us DO lace by making one slot at a time, precisely where we want it. Yep, it takes a while....but anything worth doing always does. As I've gotten older wiser, I've come to appreciate final product quality over how quickly I could make it.

[katsass]

A disclaimer here, from the grump; In no way do I indicate that the use of a machine stitcher renders one's work as not being custom work. I'm sure that there are many more custom makers that use a machine to stitch, than those that hand-stitch their stuff. There are some makers, however, that do both. Custom work is done by those that design and produce an item specifically for an individual and to the requirements of that customer exclusively. That item being unavailable in any other way. I just indicate that in my case, my customers know that their item is hand stitched. Mike

Edited October 27, 2012 by katsass

[Lippy]

Note to JIMSADDLER.

Is there any way you could post a few images showing what good traditional hand stitching should look like?

Cheers.

[spooky]

Proper Hand Sewing usually runs at aprox 3 to 3.2 stitches per minute if done with the Awl and Needles being the only implements. That is at #8 per inch. Pre Drilling or punching holes and the like is much slower and inefficient. All good stitching takes is practice and patience.

I used to have Ladies stitching for me who would average up to 30inches per hour at #8spi all day on heavy 10-12mm Harness Traces. Also they were as neat on the back as the front. The secret was loud Church Music! They just did it mechanically while listening to the Music.

240 stitches every hour for 8 hours per day and then do 4 hours overtime after a meal. So come on you Stitchers give it a go, there's only one method that is worth using and that is use the Awl to make the holes and don't put the needles down. It's the fastest way and the best.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

I see that you're from Australia... any idea where I can buy a decent pricking iron in Australia? All the new ones that I've seen are waaay too thick. Thanks

[mlapaglia]

Does your clientele pay for this reduced efficiency?

Any input will surely be appreciated. Thanks!

Actually they pay or the increased custom look and feel of a saddle stitch. I've never had a person object to paying more for hand stitching. I have a Tippmann Boss sewing machine and saddle stitch also. Depends on the project, customer and budget.

Michael

[mlapaglia]

Sorry, SQL Error = Double Post

Edited October 28, 2012 by mlapaglia

[jimsaddler]

I couldn't have said it better

"Now, the REASON an awl is preferred over a drilled or punched out hole is that an awl's hole will close up around the thread to keep out dirt, grime, and gunk that can deteriorate the thread. The awl pierces the leather and more or less 'shoves' the leather out of the way....and it'll move back in time to where only a slit marking the width of the awl will be visible. A drilled or punched hole removes the leather from the hole, and while it may close up a bit, it'll never fully close."

I endorse what you are saying as it is a basic reason why Hand Sewing has been arround for thousands of years and hasn't changed basically.

I will try to get some examples of proper Hand Sewing posted if I can get assistance on the Camera.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[Fredo]

I use a combination of two systems for hand stitiching. Some pre punch all holes, some punch each hole as they stitch.

I have a nice stitiching horse with jaws that are about 5 inches wide (or long) I set up my project in the horse and I pre punch with an awl for the length of the jaws. I stitch those and move my work, pre punch and stitich. I like that I can say that I hand saddle stitch.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Fredo

[TwinOaks]

There's already a good number of examples of hand stitching on the site - look at the stitching done by Katsass.

[St8LineGunsmith]

TwinOaks

I cant think of any other person to use as an example for such professional looking stitching

and I think he uses a drill to pre punch his stitch holes.

[Les No6]

Hi all, I've followed many debaters discussing the various merits of hand stitching with an awl, a multi prong punch, or dremel/other prepunching methods. I've been stitching with an awl in a pony for a short while now and I enjoy it but it is slow; at 6SPI I reckon I hit 24"/hour or so.

Is this slow? Can this method get speedy? How fast do you folks using other methods get going? Does your clientele pay for this reduced efficiency?

Any input will surely be appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Strudell I think you are doing well at that speed you will speed up a little in time there is no real short cuts just technique and practice, I do 20mins per foot at 8SPI but I’ve had over 30 years practice. I don’t advocate using a drill (can be useful repairing old tack where the leather is old and hard) it takes longer and produces a poorer weaker stitch.

Yes hand stitching commands a premium, one tip I can give you is if you attach a couple of leather loops to you clamp you have a convenient place to put your pricker and a small pair of pliers.

[Les No6]

Here some of my hand stiching at 8SPI.

[katsass]

From the old grumpy guy; St8line, I only use a dinky drill when teaching a person to stitch. I have them drill a series of 'pilot' holes with a 3/64" bit in a Dremel tool, then follow up with the awl - that way they pay attention to the proper orientation of the awl, and not so much on trying to get proper angle and the feel of the awl going in the right place. After a reasonably short time they resort to just poking holes with the awl. I still do my holes with a 30+ year old Osborne awl. Some of my stitching for Les. Mike

Edited October 30, 2012 by katsass

[St8LineGunsmith]

OH sorry Mike I misunderstood.

[katsass]

No problem St8Line, the way I explain things at times, nobody can figure out just what the hell I'm saying anyway. Mike