Half Leathers vs Full Leathers

[bruce johnson]

Good little discussion going on over on JW's Buster Welch ropers regarding full and half stirrup leathers. Good enough I think it could be its own topic for future searchability.

I am curious what different people think regarding full and half leathers. If you use fulls for all day saddles, halves for performance arena saddles, let the customer tell you what they want, one or the other exclusively, etc. Another part could be if you use half leathers, how do you attach them at the top - what stitching pattern and/or rivet pattern.

[jwwright]

Bruce, I have been partial to half leathers on my personal saddles for quite a while.......both all day punchin saddles or in the arena. For quite a few years actually, my saddles have served double duty as both.

I built myself a new saddle a couple months ago. On it, I tried full leathers, exposed on the outside of the fenders, but went with 2 1/2" wide. After the fenders / leathers got broke in, I really can't tell the difference between this setup and half leathers.

On half leathers, I have been using 2 rivets set across from each other horizontally. Then sewn vertically down each side about 3 inches.

When someone orders from me, they get what they prefer, and I am finding that most folks have a strong preference. I am finding that whether half or full leathers, most folks are liking the 2 1/2 " wide. JW

Edited August 11, 2008 by jwwright

[ArtS]

I've never done any half leathers. Is there an advantage or practical reason for them or is it just for looks? The closest that I've come to them is covering a set of E-Z Ride stirrups.

ArtS

Good little discussion going on over on JW's Buster Welch ropers regarding full and half stirrup leathers. Good enough I think it could be its own topic for future searchability.

I am curious what different people think regarding full and half leathers. If you use fulls for all day saddles, halves for performance arena saddles, let the customer tell you what they want, one or the other exclusively, etc. Another part could be if you use half leathers, how do you attach them at the top - what stitching pattern and/or rivet pattern.

[bruce johnson]

JW,

Thanks for the insight. I too usually let the customer decide, and you are right - most folks have a strong preference. I see some binder twine/wire repairs and weak spots that would make your head shake on saddles ridden by people that ought to know enough to check more often.

I like the 2-1/2 leathers too. I don't think I have ever seen a leather break because it was just too narrow as the only reason. The narrower leathers give me more clearance over buckles and twist in a shorter length. Probably the only place I don't offer to go to 2-1/2" would be calf roping saddles. I have some 2" Blevins style buckles, and they are dandy on kids saddles. I have some all day guys who like the 3" and that is their call.

I like the safety factor of the full leathers a little more. My brother-in-law had some rivets let go on halves on a pretty new reputation shop saddle. Ended up on his head when he went to circling a cow. Within about 5 minutes probably every saddle on the grounds had the seat jockeys lifted to check theirs. They both have been successful in the ranch horse versatility deal, and my SIL shows snaffle bitters to finished bridle horses. On any of the releathers I do for them, full is what they want. Seems like the barrel racers are split evenly, probably depending on whether they have seen one let go yet. LOL. The cutters are mostly half leathers, but tend to change out leathers and fenders more often. On the half leathers I do 2 horizontal rivets and 3 vertical stitch lines. I handsew them just because.

Another factor I think that figures in is the leathers themselves. I oil mine, sit a day, apply Williams, and let them sit a few a days. I have already wet and stretched them which makes them a little boardy. After the Williams has had a chance to soak, I work them back and forth against themselves to soften them. I put the final set on them with a stirrup stretcher. Most everybody has commented that the new leathers feel broken in right off the bat. Especially with full leathers, I could tell a difference on my own saddles.

[ArtS]

Duh, I guess I sounded stupid. I was thinking stirrups not stirrup leathers. Gee, now the post makes more sense to me.

Sorry,

ArtS

JW,

Thanks for the insight. I too usually let the customer decide, and you are right - most folks have a strong preference. I see some binder twine/wire repairs and weak spots that would make your head shake on saddles ridden by people that ought to know enough to check more often.

I like the 2-1/2 leathers too. I don't think I have ever seen a leather break because it was just too narrow as the only reason. The narrower leathers give me more clearance over buckles and twist in a shorter length. Probably the only place I don't offer to go to 2-1/2" would be calf roping saddles. I have some 2" Blevins style buckles, and they are dandy on kids saddles. I have some all day guys who like the 3" and that is their call.

I like the safety factor of the full leathers a little more. My brother-in-law had some rivets let go on halves on a pretty new reputation shop saddle. Ended up on his head when he went to circling a cow. Within about 5 minutes probably every saddle on the grounds had the seat jockeys lifted to check theirs. They both have been successful in the ranch horse versatility deal, and my SIL shows snaffle bitters to finished bridle horses. On any of the releathers I do for them, full is what they want. Seems like the barrel racers are split evenly, probably depending on whether they have seen one let go yet. LOL. The cutters are mostly half leathers, but tend to change out leathers and fenders more often. On the half leathers I do 2 horizontal rivets and 3 vertical stitch lines. I handsew them just because.

Another factor I think that factors in is the leathers themselves. I oil mine, sit a day, apply Williams, and let them sit a few a days. I have already wet and stretched them which makes them a little boardy. After the Williams has had a chance to soak, I work them back and forth against themselves to soften them. I put the final set on them with a stirrup stretcher. Most everybody has commented that the new leathers feel broken in right off the bat. Especially with full leathers, I could tell a difference on my own saddles.

[Steve Brewer]

Bruce,I build mostly cowboy saddles soI use full 3 in. leathers.unless ordered halfs.We still use laces on a few saddles.

The only saddle I am comfortable putting 2.5" leathers in are cutters and maybe ladies ,but they would have to be ordered that way.I guess I'am old school.

Steve

[Traveller]

The only saddle I am comfortable putting 2.5" leathers in are cutters and maybe ladies ,but they would have to be ordered that way.I guess I'am old school.

Does the extra half-inch provide a lot more strength?

Interesting story, Bruce, about the relatively new half-stirrups that broke on your BIL. I'm always looking for less between me and the horse (my current production saddle doesn't do such a fabulous job at that...) but I also like the idea of continuing to sit in the thing.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Traveller

[Steve Brewer]

Trav. Half leathers will have less bulk under your leg.Most saddles I build for cowboys are rode hard at a trot.Alot of wieght is put on the leathers all day.Pleasure ridders can get away with 2.5" half leathers fine.That would make even less bulk .Put that ontop a skirt rigging and you even get less.

Steve

[Traveller]

Thanks, Steve -- much appreciated!

[Steve Brewer]

Good little discussion going on over on JW's Buster Welch ropers regarding full and half stirrup leathers. Good enough I think it could be its own topic for future searchability.

I am curious what different people think regarding full and half leathers. If you use fulls for all day saddles, halves for performance arena saddles, let the customer tell you what they want, one or the other exclusively, etc. Another part could be if you use half leathers, how do you attach them at the top - what stitching pattern and/or rivet pattern.

Bruce,Got a saddle to repair from Smokey Pritchart today that changed my mind about half leathers.The top of one fender is torn into.the other is roke just above the finder.They tell me the saddle is 6 yrs. old.It is a good repair for me ,but should last longer than that.The rest of the saddle is in good shape.

Steve

[greg gomersall]

I tend to not use half leathers for anybody over 150 pounds unless they insist. When I do use half leathers I always cut cut my fenders length wise on the hide not from top to bottom. whether using half or full leathers I also always sew a W pattern besides riveting unless doing a set of half doubles. Greg

[rickybobby]

It is the time of year that the "dude ranches" in our town are closed but bringing in their saddles for repair so I have been seeing saddles with a lot of wear and some pretty old and beat up.

The stirup leathers on most of these saddles are full and they are stretched and tearing the fender. So even with full leathers they take some weight. The ranches do not want to put a lot of money in these but to make them safe, if they are real bad we replace the full leathers and patch the fender as best we can. Taking these saddles apart has been a lesson in stress points on a saddle and it has made me more aware of building techniques. The saddles I have built (4) were with the help of the "Stohlman books" and now I have been working in a saddle shop for 3 months and get to see some other techniques. I have seen some very good posts in this forum that have helped me as well.

The posts in this topic are very informative (what can happen) and how they handle the customer vs. safety.

The info I get from this forum from the pro's is a great help and I thank you all!

[secondcrk]

I see a lot of half leathers because I do a lot of McCall saddle work. Most of thiers are on thier Lady and lite trail models to eliminate weight. All thier performance saddles have them also. 3" on the mens saddles and 2.5 on the lites. I like the half leather idea for close contact and feel, but still prefer 3". I have seen some 2" halfs that are kind of scarey! I use 2 rivets vetical and the stitch pattern will vary. Proper care and inspection of your saddle goes a long way when it comes to half leathers!

[bruce johnson]

Steve,

So is Smokey getting half leathers again? LOL. For those who are not semi-local, he is a pretty good sized guy, and trains cutters and snafflebit>bridle horses. Cutting may be pretty balanced in the stirrups for the most part. The cowhorse deal is not the same. No hand on the horn to keep you centered. Working a single cow, going down the fence and turning them, and then circling up tight on one will get you loaded from one stirrup to another. That stresses those fenders and leathers a bunch with a bigger rider, and a lot of these people are training and showing in cutting saddles. I think a good quality leather, heavy enough and treated right, and left full is a way safer deal for this kind of use. Secondcrk is right. Helpful if the rider takes a look under there once in awhile too - kind of check the stitching and rivets. Some of these production copper rivets cut close and pounded flat are just looking for an excuse to pop off and land you on your melon. At least with full leathers two straps have to break down low to put you there.

Rickybobby,

A little trick I learned several years ago to prevent some of the pull on fender legs. When you replace full leathers, fold the leather and fender leg like you would to match up the top of the fender to the stirrup leather and mark it. Slide it down about 3/4 inch below the mark and attaching it there. If you put your leathers on like most of us probably were taught, the billet end in the butt and the fender/buckle end is getting up toward the shoulder - a stretchier area. As that leather is weighted and stretches, it will match up with the fender leg and both will bear weight and it will sling some of the weight off the fender leg. If you were to match it to the original position, it would stretch just enough to not bear much weight, and the fender leg would again being carrying the load. I have to laugh at your description of the dude ranch saddles and their economic constraints. I wonder if their liability insurance would be happy. I had a guy leave me 3 towsacks of saddle parts to make as many kid saddles up as I could. He had a poor attitude when he picked up 3 sacks of saddle parts a week later.

A personal side note to everyone - Thanks to all of you for posting questions and replies. We are all coming here with regional, use, and event-specific backgrounds, and sharing it and learning from each other. I appreciate it. As most of you know, this forum is run on donations and it has some fixed costs every month to keep it going and maintained. Most months is it pretty close to break even, but some months short. For what it is worth, there has never been a surplus that has lasted past the next dry spell. If you ever feel flush and can help out, the moderaters and especially Johanna would appreciate it. No money is taken out of this forum. I think there is a link on the home page to donate, and somewhere Johanna has her address. This forum was started with some seed money from a guy who said "do something to help out the leatherworkers" and I think we are meeting that. It has grown way beyond anyone's wildest expectations, and I don't think there is another group sharing like this. Glad to have all of you here and your participation.