Does Anyone Know Why My Finish Is Removing My Dye?

[Natalie O]

Hey guys,

I am kind of new at leather crafting. I have been making quivers mostly wich didnt require any tooling but i decided to start some new projects. I bought books, stamps, tools, dyes and everything that seemed to be needed. I tooled my leather, cleaned it to remove any wax or oil, and then when it dried i proceeded with the colouring. I used a water based dye (eco flo). I let it dry, i buffed it and then i applied the finish. I used a super shene....and it was a disaster! I only wanted one part of the project to be dyed and the rest to remain in its natural colour. I took a cloth, put some of the product on it and started working it on the leather. The dye came off the coloured parts and just spreaded on the rest of the project which now looks so bad i ll have to throw it away. Any ideas about why this happened???

Please!!

Thank you!

[DoubleC]

I can think of a couple of things that MIGHT have happened. I would have cleaned it before tooling instead of after and made sure whatever you cleaned it with was removed completely. Did you let the stain dry overnight? A picture would help...Also I use resolene so I don't know how super sheen works with these things. I would really like to see a picture. Cheryl

[ReneeCanady]

I just started leather working in December of last year and had this happen to me also. I was soooo ready to just throw in the towel. I am a newb still but this seemed to work for me. The step right before dyeing for me is to use a coat of neatsfoot oil on the project, let it dry completely, and then dye it.

[Natalie O]

I can think of a couple of things that MIGHT have happened. I would have cleaned it before tooling instead of after and made sure whatever you cleaned it with was removed completely. Did you let the stain dry overnight? A picture would help...Also I use resolene so I don't know how super sheen works with these things. I would really like to see a picture. Cheryl

Hello and thanks for your reply,

I ll try to upload a picture of it later (although the outcome makes me very NOT proud to show it in public )

Well, i cleaned it with alcohol (someone told me its good to use it, i dont know if its right???). and basically that kind of dries instantly. As for the tooling....the dye that came off was actually frost a part that wasnt tooled at all! I left it dry but not over night. Maybe it needed more time, i dont know. And also another thing that happened with this product is that it says that if you use 2 layers of it , it can be used as a resist finish. i was trying to work my way around the patern but the dye just didnt look consistant (using a small brush to do the details) so i put 2 layers of the product, let it dry, and thought that i could then just work the dye on the patern, having the patern to remain in its original colour and the rest of it to get dyed evenly.....The patern changed colour too.

I know there are special products for that but it said on the bottle it could do the same thing. Any ideas about that?

Thanks

[Natalie O]

I just started leather working in December of last year and had this happen to me also. I was soooo ready to just throw in the towel. I am a newb still but this seemed to work for me. The step right before dyeing for me is to use a coat of neatsfoot oil on the project, let it dry completely, and then dye it.

Hello. I guess i could try that, but using oil would still make it ok for me to work with water based dye?

Thanks

[Chief31794]

Hey guys,

I am kind of new at leather crafting. I have been making quivers mostly wich didnt require any tooling but i decided to start some new projects. I bought books, stamps, tools, dyes and everything that seemed to be needed. I tooled my leather, cleaned it to remove any wax or oil, and then when it dried i proceeded with the colouring. I used a water based dye (eco flo). I let it dry, i buffed it and then i applied the finish. I used a super shene....and it was a disaster! I only wanted one part of the project to be dyed and the rest to remain in its natural colour. I took a cloth, put some of the product on it and started working it on the leather. The dye came off the coloured parts and just spreaded on the rest of the project which now looks so bad i ll have to throw it away. Any ideas about why this happened???

Please!!

Thank you!

Natalie,

Sorry you're having trouble, dyes are wonderfully mysterious things. There will always be some "rub off" when rubbing dyes whether they are spirit based or water based. The best way to approach a project where you want to keep part of the leather natural and part dyed is to protect the natural area. If I were going to do this I would use Neat Lac, thin it to about 2:1 2 parts neat lac and 1 part thinner. Dye the areas, let dry for at least 8 hours (normally you would buff the piece after that to remove any rub off, you can't do that or it will bleed onto the natural areas that are adjacent. Apply the prepared neat lac (preferrably with an air brush if no air brush is available then with a very soft brush), if you use a brush, paint the neat lac onto the natural areas only and let dry for at least 8 hours, then apply Clear Lac to the entire piece at full strenght, the first coat on the natural areas will resist and dye transfer.

Oiling is done to restore natural oils that are lost during the dying process, this is more important with spirit based dyes, but it never hurts to oil before dying, very light coat, before dying. I think this can be done with supersheen but I don't trust it, and not many people do, it's a fine product for some applications, it just doesn't measure up to some of the better products on the market, Clear Lac (used to be called Neat Lac) is the best finish on the market in my opinion, some folks use homemade finishes (glocoat/water), I've never tried them, but I know that Clear Lac works. It's available from Springfield Leather Company and some of our other sponsors as well.

Hope this helps, maybe some other folks will chime in with other ideas.

Chief

[David8386]

Neatsfoot oil in a very light coat helps replace the oils lost in tooling and cleaning. I use old cotton socks and put a couple of drops on it and rub it on the leather. The key word being light coats. Let it dry completely before dying. Do it a couple of times and you will get the feel of how much you want to put on.

David

[Wishful]

I use the spray finish so I dont have to "touch" it.

[abn]

Natalie, you're receiving good advice above. I've used Super Shene and Eco-Flo for years. As Chief said, all dyes will have some rub-off, so the trick that Wishful posted is probably the best bet -- use a spray-type finish so you don't have to rub the surface.

Also, as someone who has ruined good projects on a regular basis, be sure to test all new dyes, finishes, processes or techniques on scrap first! That helps avoid the pain of throwing away an item with hours of work invested.

Good luck!

[Natalie O]

Thank you all for your advice!!! It has been really helpful.

I was so frustrated. I had spent hours making that project and now it looks like something a kinder garden student made.I surely will start testing everything before i use it.

And now i got more things i have to buy. Is everyone here from the US? I live very far from that, and cant get nearly anything here. I'm afraid leather crafting is not that popular in my country. I get most of my things from amazon. If i don't find the Clear Lac whats the next best thing?

[Chief31794]

Thank you all for your advice!!! It has been really helpful.

I was so frustrated. I had spent hours making that project and now it looks like something a kinder garden student made.I surely will start testing everything before i use it.

And now i got more things i have to buy. Is everyone here from the US? I live very far from that, and cant get nearly anything here. I'm afraid leather crafting is not that popular in my country. I get most of my things from amazon. If i don't find the Clear Lac whats the next best thing?

Natalie,

Sorry I didn't notice you were from Greece. I think that Clear Lac is probably out of the question, it is not very environment friendly and has shipping restrictions in the US. The Supersheen you're using should work, you have to make sure you get it on good (not thick but completely covered), and 2-3 coats with drying in between or use a spray. I tried the sprays but didn't like them, you have to be very careful not to get it too thick, it will crack if put on too thick, still workable.

Good Luck,

Chief

[Natalie O]

Natalie,

Sorry I didn't notice you were from Greece. I think that Clear Lac is probably out of the question, it is not very environment friendly and has shipping restrictions in the US. The Supersheen you're using should work, you have to make sure you get it on good (not thick but completely covered), and 2-3 coats with drying in between or use a spray. I tried the sprays but didn't like them, you have to be very careful not to get it too thick, it will crack if put on too thick, still workable.

Good Luck,

Chief

Aw, thats too bad. Thank you though. I ll try that. However, if i use a cloth, i ll still have the dye coming off. And if i do apply 2 coats to the area i dont want dye on, and then dye the rest of it, well in the end the dyed part will need a finish coat too. Is there a risk of the finish being too thick if i apply another 2-3 layers on the whole porject in the end?

[immiketoo]

Natalie, after reading about your experience, I would say the only real solution is spraying your finish on. I struggled with this same problem on a holster I made recently, and I finally ran my finish, resolene, through my airbrush. It worked perfectly. Rubbing with cloth or daubers speared everything. If you don't have an airbrush, a squeeze pump sprayer like is used with kitchen/bathroom cleaning chemicals will work well in a pinch. The trick there is to find the right distance for spraying and to use thin coats. A thick, wet coat is almost as bad as rubbing (Ask me how I know...).

Anyway, good luck and don't be ashamed of your pictures. You might be anle to salvage your project, or at worst, repurpose it for another project.

Good luck!

[Northmount]

All finishes have a solvent of some sort. Lacquer finishes have a very strong solvent, acetone, toululene, or other similar chemicals. These strong solvents work really well at lifting dyes, especially water based ones.

So as mentioned above, make sure the dyed area is really dry, at least 8 hours. Buff well to remove any surface pigments, then if possible, use a spray finish.

Other options

1. Use a brush and paint your finish onto only the dyed area. If you have multiple colours, then clean your brush between areas and don't overlap. Let that finish cure and dry completely before applying your finish over the whole article.

2. Use a wax/oil based finish. Less chance of dissolving any surface dye.

An option for cleaning up your problem piece is to flood it with lots of your finish, working fast so you can soften and remove the tinted finish, using lots of fresh rags or even paper towel, and keep adding new finish, diluting and scrubbing off the old finish. You should be able to remove most of the tinted finish. Acetone or deglazer will remove finishes too, though they tend to dry the leather out a lot and likely will give you a bad headache. Worse than the finish. Need lots of fresh air!

Tom

[Natalie O]

Natalie, after reading about your experience, I would say the only real solution is spraying your finish on. I struggled with this same problem on a holster I made recently, and I finally ran my finish, resolene, through my airbrush. It worked perfectly. Rubbing with cloth or daubers speared everything. If you don't have an airbrush, a squeeze pump sprayer like is used with kitchen/bathroom cleaning chemicals will work well in a pinch. The trick there is to find the right distance for spraying and to use thin coats. A thick, wet coat is almost as bad as rubbing (Ask me how I know...).

Anyway, good luck and don't be ashamed of your pictures. You might be anle to salvage your project, or at worst, repurpose it for another project.

Good luck!

I dont have an airbrush but i ll try the spray bottle idea. Thanks!

And by the way how do you know?

I did that too actually. When i realized the paint was coming off with the cloth i took a paint brush and tried to apply it on the dyed area. Guess what! The coat was so thick the dye just floated away and my brush is now green!

I nearly gave up. It was so frustrating! Seeing that a lot of you had the same problem is a comfort though. Hopefully in a few days i ll have something decent to show you!

[Natalie O]

All finishes have a solvent of some sort. Lacquer finishes have a very strong solvent, acetone, toululene, or other similar chemicals. These strong solvents work really well at lifting dyes, especially water based ones.

So as mentioned above, make sure the dyed area is really dry, at least 8 hours. Buff well to remove any surface pigments, then if possible, use a spray finish.

Other options

1. Use a brush and paint your finish onto only the dyed area. If you have multiple colours, then clean your brush between areas and don't overlap. Let that finish cure and dry completely before applying your finish over the whole article.

2. Use a wax/oil based finish. Less chance of dissolving any surface dye.

An option for cleaning up your problem piece is to flood it with lots of your finish, working fast so you can soften and remove the tinted finish, using lots of fresh rags or even paper towel, and keep adding new finish, diluting and scrubbing off the old finish. You should be able to remove most of the tinted finish. Acetone or deglazer will remove finishes too, though they tend to dry the leather out a lot and likely will give you a bad headache. Worse than the finish. Need lots of fresh air!

Tom

Hey! I would like to try the oil or wax based finish but since i live in Greece and i can only get stuff from the internet. So far all i can find on amazon or ebay is super shene ,acrylic finish by fiebings, satin super shene, acrylic resolene sealer and fiebings saddle lac spray.

Should i use that last one since its spray? Is there any other products you would recomend that i can get here?

Thanks for the advice

[Chavez]

Hi Natalie,

Being from the EU I also have no access to neat-lac. And the best thing I've tried so far was acrylic resolene. It takes a while to learn to apply it consistently, but once you manage to find a way to apply it, it becomes your best friend =) I've wasted a lot of money on various finishes and while I still experiment with natural wax-based stuff on plain leather, i only use resolene for carved. Just cut it 50-50 with water!

PS for natural stuff I'm trying to decide between Aussie's, sno-seal and dri-boot.

Aussie's gives a decent finish but you'll need about 6 coats of it... Sno-seal has to be shipped from the US, but it's good for increasing water resistance and for finishing tight areas (it's quite soft). Dri-boot is great for flat surfaces but hard to get into tight areas. I can give you contact details of the UK distributor but shipping to Greece might be quite pricy.

None of the natural stuff goes well with carved leather as it builds up in the cuts =(

Edited December 6, 2012 by Chavez

[Sylvia]

Natalie: Do you know if you have an acrylic wax based floor cleaner there? We have something called "mop & glo" One of our members (Katsass)swears by it and he uses it all the time, thinned... I think. to 50/50 water to cleaner. If you could get something like that locally you would save yourself a lot of time... and shipping and import issues.

Also, Sometimes I use use permanent markers to color leather rather than dyes and a brush. I find the markers give more control and are less likely to rub off. Sharpies and Bic both have sets with good selections of colors. I like to let them "set" for a few days before I put any other type of finish on them. BTW... Patience, patience, patience. Most disasters come from trying to move on to the next step too quickly.

As far as testing before hand.... I've had mixed results with that. It needs to be a piece of leather from the same leather and area of hide that you made the project from.

[David8386]

Hey Chavez have you tried using a hair dryer on the Aussie conditioner when you put it on? I don't know who came up with the idea but I do it that way. Then let it soak in and buff it out.

David

[sherlockian100]

supersheen will resist stains and antiques, but not dyes.

[Northmount]

Hey! I would like to try the oil or wax based finish but since i live in Greece and i can only get stuff from the internet. So far all i can find on amazon or ebay is super shene ,acrylic finish by fiebings, satin super shene, acrylic resolene sealer and fiebings saddle lac spray.

Should i use that last one since its spray? Is there any other products you would recomend that i can get here?

Thanks for the advice

You can make your own (if you can get the ingredients and I think you should be able to), take a look at this thread http://leatherworker...ipe#entry258687

Searching LW will probably find several other recipes too. And for an oil/wax finish, note the tip above to use a hair dryer to help melt it in, especially with any tooling.

Saddle Lac should be okay as a spray ... so you don't have to rub it on. I haven't used it. As Sylvia has noted, an acrylic floor cleaner/polish cut 50/50 will work too. But needs to be sprayed on, else it can lift your water based dye as well when you are swabbing it on. I haven't had much luck with ordinary spray bottles. They spit too much instead of leaving a nice overall spray. An airbrush works well. You will find lots of info here if you do a search for airbrush.

Tom

Edited December 7, 2012 by northmount

[Natalie O]

Natalie: Do you know if you have an acrylic wax based floor cleaner there? We have something called "mop & glo" One of our members (Katsass)swears by it and he uses it all the time, thinned... I think. to 50/50 water to cleaner. If you could get something like that locally you would save yourself a lot of time... and shipping and import issues.

Also, Sometimes I use use permanent markers to color leather rather than dyes and a brush. I find the markers give more control and are less likely to rub off. Sharpies and Bic both have sets with good selections of colors. I like to let them "set" for a few days before I put any other type of finish on them. BTW... Patience, patience, patience. Most disasters come from trying to move on to the next step too quickly.

As far as testing before hand.... I've had mixed results with that. It needs to be a piece of leather from the same leather and area of hide that you made the project from.

Hello.

We do have quite a few products like that over here. Especially for wooden floors. However i don't know if all of them are good. Is it possible for them to have some sort of chemicals that will destroy the leather?

[Natalie O]

Hi Natalie,

Being from the EU I also have no access to neat-lac. And the best thing I've tried so far was acrylic resolene. It takes a while to learn to apply it consistently, but once you manage to find a way to apply it, it becomes your best friend =) I've wasted a lot of money on various finishes and while I still experiment with natural wax-based stuff on plain leather, i only use resolene for carved. Just cut it 50-50 with water!

PS for natural stuff I'm trying to decide between Aussie's, sno-seal and dri-boot.

Aussie's gives a decent finish but you'll need about 6 coats of it... Sno-seal has to be shipped from the US, but it's good for increasing water resistance and for finishing tight areas (it's quite soft). Dri-boot is great for flat surfaces but hard to get into tight areas. I can give you contact details of the UK distributor but shipping to Greece might be quite pricy.

None of the natural stuff goes well with carved leather as it builds up in the cuts =(

Hey Chavez

When you say that the acrylic resolene takes time to learn to apply (and since i have some issues with patience) is it really that complicated? Any tips on how many layers and how you apply it? Thanks!

And a last more general question.

I ve read a lot about the advantages and disadvantages of every type of dye, and in the end i m still confused about whats best.

If i used acrylic dyes or antiques would i still have this problem?

And which dye actually gives a better result?

[Chavez]

Natalie: If you over-apply it, then leather looks plastic-y =(

I cut it with water, put it on a sponge and rub it in in circular motions. 1-3 layers depending on the project (and my mood =) )

You'll need a lot of patience with everything in leatherwork though =)

David, can you please explain how (and how much of it) you apply aussies? Do you apply tan-kote first? And can you use any antique with it?

I use a hairdryer to set wax-based finishes into leather but following problems occur:

- When its dry and you bend it, wax "flakes up" and there are light stains on leather (most of them can be buffed out though)

- light-coloured leathersoaks up the oil from Aussie's unevenly so stains occur;

- wax builds up in carved designs and darkens them unevenly as wax gets sucked into the leather. I've tried using a toothbrush to take the wax out but its not very helpful =(

- Leather finished with just Aussie's seems to be more likely to get scratched... Not sure about this one though, could be bad luck.

Thank you!

[katsass]

Natalie, just a comment from the grump: Water based dyes are odd acting things - - especially when applying a water based finish by mechanical (rubbing in with a rag) means. This application method re-hydrates the dye and allows it to "travel" to the applicator, and in turn, to places you do not want dye - - or it lifts the dye and thins out your original application - - or both. . Years ago I found the acrylic floor cleaner/polish (Mop and Glow) and have used it now for at least 40 years, BUT there is a trick to it when used on water based dyes. I now use the least expensive airbrush made, however, prior to that I used a pump sprayer from 'Windex' glass cleaner. (That seemed to produce the finest 'mist' for applications). Thin the acrylic (Super Sheen) 50/50 with water and spray it on lightly. Do not get as close to the surface you are working on as you would when cleaning windows. Stay off a fair distance and allow the mist from the nozzle to 'fall' on your project - just slightly dampening the surface. Allow to dry for an hour or so, and re-apply. To clean the sprayer, just pump clean water through the thing. Hope this helps. Mike

Edited December 7, 2012 by katsass