asquaregarden Report post Posted December 6, 2012 This was intended for Wiz but I decided to post it here in case anybody else has any suggestions. Let me start by saying that I am new to leatherworking and have never used a sewing machine before. With that being said I’ve been looking into getting my first machine and I could probably raise the money for a cb4500 but I don’t know if I can justify it(YET). I am looking for something that is as versatile as possible and I see you have a National that you are happy with. What I was looking for and I could not find in the forum is something along the lines of (like they say in my country .. the mind after the fact) with the knowledge that you have now if you started from nothing and you were doing a large variety of projects from leather purses and wallets to gun holsters what tools/sewing machines would you buy , in what order and what prices would you be willing to pay? Also I see you recommend going to a local shop for a machine. I live in Ann Arbor and I’ve been looking for such a thing around here but it’s been a fruitless hunt to this point. Is my best bet going to Toledo? I would appreciate any input you might have regarding this. Thank you Alin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Chee Report post Posted December 6, 2012 If this is your first machine, definitely buy it from a reputable dealer. They may not be cheaper than Craigslist but you will get a machine that is set up correctly. A local shop is not necessary since the dealers like Bob at Toledo or Steve at Cobra will ship you machines and offer great service. Only thing you can't do is bring the machine back to them if you have a problem. I had a problem with a machine I bought from Steve and he paid for a local machine tech to come take a look at it so service was great. Bob might be better for you simply because he's closer to you and shipping costs might be cheaper. I have bought several machines from Steve because of the service and because he's close to me and shipping is less because of that. Since buying my first machine (an Artisan Toro 3000 which is basically the same as the Cowboy 3500) I have acquired six machines and sold two of them. What I've found is that no one machine will do everything. The Cowboy CB4500 class machines will be great for doing things like holsters or saddlery. The smallest thread you can practically use is a 138. If you're doing finer stuff like wallet liners or thinner leather purses (total thickness of less than say 6-8oz) then the machine won't work very well. I use a 69 thread for wallet liners and a 138 for top stitching edges. The feet and feed dogs are really too big for finer work. In addition to the Artisan, I now have a Pfaff 335 and two Consew 206RBs (one I got for free). I didn't purchase those from a dealer so I had to set a lot of things up myself. I've gotten to know sewing machines a bit better so swapping out motors and doing small modifications like grinding down feed dogs is not a big deal for me. If this is your first machine, I'd advise against going this route. These machines are good for light to middle weight materials. They will sew the wallets and purses well. They max out at I think at a 207 thread I believe (I've never had a need to go that heavy on those machines so I'm not sure on that). 207 will sew holsters although people seem to like a 277 thread for holsters and I don't think that these machines will do that. Looking back now, if I was to have only one machine as a first machine, especially since I don't do any holsters or super heavy stuff like that, I would have gone with something like a Pfaff 335 type of machine. A cylinder bed machine that maxes out at 138 or 207 thread and has about a 1/2" foot lift would have been the most versatile for me. A cylinder arm machine is also very useful for purses and difficult, tight edges. Just make sure you get a flat bed attachment with the machine so you can sew flat stuff easily as well. Also, whatever machine you get, get a speed reducer and a servo motor. The speed reducer gives you good torque to punch through hard leather at slow speeds. I have needle positioner servos on all my machines except the Artisan. They cost about $50-75 more than a regular servo but I really like the great control they give. Some people here like the Sewpro 500GR gear reduction motor. I've tried them but I still like the speed reducers better because they give you more torque at the super low speeds. On the flip side, a speed reducer + servo is a more expensive solution than a gear reduction servo. Similar to the Pfaff 335 is something like a Cowboy CB227R which are clones of the Consew 227R. Check those out. Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asquaregarden Report post Posted December 6, 2012 Andrew, I appreciate the quick reply and the amount of info provided. I can’t believe I looked at Bob’s website at least 100 times in the last week and have never looked at CB227R. That goes to show you how much help I need! That machine looks like a good way to start. I see you have the 335 so what do you use your 206s for? I am asking because I was initially thinking about getting a 206. Thank you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Chee Report post Posted December 6, 2012 Well, one of the 206s I got for free. I wasn't planning on having two. I have the Artisan set up for 138 thread and the 335 set up for 69 thread. I have one of the 206s set up for 69 and the other set up for 138. I really could get away with not having either of the flat beds but just the two cylinder beds (if I made a flat bed attachment for the 335). Flat bed machines are just nice to use for sewing larger flat pieces though. I originally wasn't planning on buying the 335 but I got a really good deal from a local factory that was closing down so I couldn't pass it up. Honestly, if you were to have one machine, get a cylinder bed for the flexibility. Just make sure it has a flat bed attachment. If you want to cover all the bases in terms of materials and thicknesses you would expect to work on then get something like a 227 (A Pfaff 335 is even better but they're expensive) and a Toro 3000/CB3500/Cobra Class 3 size of machine. The Consew 206RB machines are pretty good machines and will sew the same weight of material as a 227 or a 335 but they are flat beds and don't have the flexibility of a cylinder bed machine. On the other hand, they are cheaper. Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted December 7, 2012 I had to re-acquire all of my current stock of sewing machines from scratch, starting in 2009. My first good machine was a National 300N flatbed walking foot machine, made in Japan. It is similar to the Consew 206RB and Chandler 406RB. While it "can" sew with #207 thread, it does so with some difficulty, compared to #138. It simply cannot sew with #277 thread. The machine is good for slightly over 3/8 inch of material, including leather. The walking foot came with a clutch motor, which although I could feather it down to 1 stitch per second, it was stressful on my ankle. So, I replaced the motor with a SewPro 500GR, from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. My next important purchase was a Singer long arm, large bobbin 29K172 patcher, on a treadle base. I use it every week to sew patches onto motorcycle gang vests. My third best machine purchase was my Union Lockstitch Machine. It sewed 3/4 inch as is, but I modified it to sew 7/8 inch. It is thread-agnostic, as long as I have the right size needle and awl. It is currently set up with #346 thread. My fourth and truly best machine acquisition was my Cowboy CB4500. It is now in my leather shop and is used every day to sew anything from cuffs on jeans, to zippers in jackets, to belts, gun belts, weight belts, to holsters and sheathes. I just sewed together a 3/4 inch thick knife sheath, with #277 thread, top and bottom, using a #25 S point Schmetz needle. My next purchase was a Singer 31-15, which I use for flat work and material. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Techsew Ron Report post Posted December 7, 2012 Andrew, I appreciate the quick reply and the amount of info provided. I can’t believe I looked at Bob’s website at least 100 times in the last week and have never looked at CB227R. That goes to show you how much help I need! That machine looks like a good way to start. I see you have the 335 so what do you use your 206s for? I am asking because I was initially thinking about getting a 206. Thank you A 227 clone would be a useful machine for you, very versatile for sewing anything from light leather up to 3/8" thick. Our version (Techsew 2700) is our most popular machine for leather items such as wallets, purses, notebook covers, leather garments, belts and more. This is a cylinder machine and we offer a flatbed table attachment for when you want to sew long/flat items without them falling off the edge of your cylinder arm. This kind of machine could be a good option for you if you're not ready to invest in a 441 clone yet. Good luck in your search! Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
asquaregarden Report post Posted December 7, 2012 Thank you all for the info. I am going to Toledo to take a look in the next few days being that I am less than an hour away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anne Bonnys Locker Report post Posted December 9, 2012 One of the problems for the first timer is that there are a bunch of machines from different manufacturers that do the same thing. Pfaff and Seiko both build a lovely compound feed cylinder bed that run to about 10mm leather with 138 (207 at a stretch on top) thread and then there are the clones. Work with a dealer that lots of others recommend as a trustworthy dealer will sell you what suits your needs, not what you think you need and then back it to the hilt. Good dealers are not so interested in a one off sale as they are in a relationship that will last for decades and cover your expanding needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
