Expert Help Needed - Wiz

[piddler]

I can buy a new Techsew 2700, Juki 441S, or Toro 3000 branded an Artisan machine for virtually the same money. What would you buy if your primary use was smaller leather accs such as belts, bags, purses etc. I rarely sew over 2 pieces of 8-9oz, but always sew down to 3-4 oz with a mission grain or kid lining. I'm afraid the Juki and Toro may be more machine than I need, but would sure be nice to have if they will do the same job without marking up my projects.

Since I was too late to order from Ron today at Techsew I have the weekend to decide. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

[Wizcrafts]

Yer puttin me on the spot Pilgrim.

Okay.

I have been there and done that. I tried working my way up to the best sewing machine for the money and blew a small fortune doing so. Here is my advice: Buy the best machine you can afford, even if you have to lease it.

You left out one of the best currently available 441 clones on the market: The cowboy brand CB3500, 4500 and 5500. The 3500 has a 9" arm, like the Artisan 3000, but is made at the best quality factory in China.I own the next model up: the CB4500. I use this machine every day to sew everything from jeans cuffs. to handles on purses, to zippers, to belts, to holsters, etc. I used it today to sew across the back of a shoe where the material had come loose on the inside. There is little this machine cannot handle.

If you aren't interested in the Cowboy brand machines for some reason, the Techsew 2700 would be a good starters' machine. It is a light duty, walking foot sewing machine. While it may be technically able to handle #207 thread, it won't be pretty. The pressure required to hold down the leather may be more than the pressure spring can apply.

In contrast, my CB4500 can sew from 6 ounces up, depending on what size thread and needle I use. With a #19 needle, it sews thin garment leather or jeans, with #92 thread. Plop in a #22 or #23 needle and it sews with #138 thread. Move up to a #24 and it sews #207. Ramp it up a notch to a #25 and it sews #277 thread, top and bottom. This is not the end of the line either. It can sew with #415 thread, using a #27 needle! Did I mention is can sew as long as 2 or 3 stitches per inch? This is with either the smooth feed dog, or no feed dog at all. I prefer no feed dog for my work. Some like it the other way.

If you are going to only sew thin or soft leather, a 227 type machine is adequate. But, once you start playing with the big dogs, a real leather stitcher is needed. That is a 441 clone, or an Adler 205-374, Union Lockstitch, or Campbell-Randall.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[Trox]

Hi, what Wiz forget to mention is that the Juki TSC 441, who is one of your alternatives; is the mother of all these clones machine.

Cobra 4, Cowboy 4500, Toro 3000 (shorter arm) and Techsew 5100 are all Chinese copies of this machine. They have a 5 mm higher lift (not the Toro 3000) and leather set up; smooth feet`s and feed dog. Some have also a special needle plate. However, these attachment can be bought from one of our dealers for 2 to 300 $ and installed on the original machine.

The Juki is made in Japan and is a more expensive and better machine. However, if you are going to sew thin leather with threads lighter than Tex 138 a machine like the Cowboy 2500 or Techsew 2700 will do a better job.

The 441 has a very long needle who will easily bend or break in small sizes, it is made for heavy work.

Tor

[Ken Nelson]

One other alternative is the Luberto's Classic which uses 2 needle systems, 794 and 328. I have sewn from 2 layers of 3oz to a full inch on mine. It will sew using a touch lighter thread than the 441 type machines but be sitting down when you price a new one. I have bought several machine from Steve at Leather machine Co and have been extremely satisified with the quality of his products and the service has been outstanding. I have bought parts and supplies from Toledo Sewing and have had good service from them. Shipping between me and Steve is quite a bit less than it is with Bob at Toledo Sewing machine CO. I have never dealt with Ron but I know he has an excellent reputation and that is not easy to get these days. I would not hesitate to buy from any of the above. Do yourself a favor and stay with a reputable dealer. HTH Ken

[Wizcrafts]

The Techsew 2700 is a good machine for light and medium duty leather sewing. It has a 10.5 inch cylinder arm. It will sew from 1/32 inch (2 oz), with #46 thread, up to 3/8 inch (20 oz), with #138 thread, top and bottom. It can handle #207 thread on top and #138 on the bottom. Needles are readily available from tiny sizes, like #10 or 12, all the way up to #25, in leather points of various geometries. There are dozens of miscellaneous presser feet that fit the machine. Help is a phone call away, during business hours, from Ronny, at Techsew.

I can't imagine where you were going to buy a Juki 441 for the same price as a Techsew 2700. The Juki TSC-441 typically lists for over $5000. If you bought one at half price it would be in the vicinity of $2500. I believe that in stock configuration, the TSC-441 has a 12 inch arm, but I might be mistaken.

The Toro 3000 is a 9 inch cylinder arm, heavy leather stitcher. It is best used with thread sizes starting with #138 and going up. It should be able to sew into about 4 to 6 ounces of leather, or up to 7/8 inch. It uses system 7x3 regular point, or 794 leather point needles. I think they sell for $2,000, or so.

[Trox]

A TSC 441 for that price will be a good buy, even if you had to change some parts on it. The TSC 441 only comes with a 16,53 inches arm. It is a long arm version called TSC 461 with a 37 inches arm. The Juki 441 costs 5750 $ head only where I live, I believe thats about the same as the global price, there are no tax on sewing machines here.

[piddler]

The Juki 441S is a lightly used machine from a reputable dealer that also happens to sell on ebay. I have been negotiating with him for a couple days and have managed to get a lower price on his items. I will show you his listings, but please, nobody scoot up under me on these until I decide. :-)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220676926994?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Juki-441S-/221075919956?pt=BI_Sewing_Machines&hash=item337926d454

And then this one from Ron:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150967761918?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[piddler]

This looks like the same machine as the Juki, under a different brand

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ECONOSEW-441S-Heavy-Duty-Walking-Foot-Sewing-Machine-/110626651772?pt=BI_Sewing_Machines&hash=item19c1dcbe7c

[Jimbob]

Do yourself a favor, stay away from ebay!!!!

Call Steve or Toledo Bob, they all have these machines tested and sewn off...yes maybe you save 200 bucks, but down the road when the ebay dude long forgot your name....these dealers on here will help you in any way they can!

Jimbob

[Sylvia]

I'm afraid I agree with Jimbob. Work with one of the dealers here. They will take good care of you and may even be willing to meet the price of the ebay guy.

One thing I wanted to mention. The sewing I had done prior to having my Toro3000 was always on a flatbed industrial or a home flatbed or one that converted from flat to free arm. A cylinder arm machine is a whole different critter and take some time to get used to. First these machines are HUGE and intimidating and have the power to sew through flesh and bone and keep on going. (scary) for that reason I would recommend that if you have never sewn before to get with someone who is willing to spend time with you and allow you to get the feel for one of these machines.

[piddler]

Robert downloaded this video on youtube of the exact machine he is offering. I'm pretty impressed with someone willing to go to all that trouble. His company is National Sewing Supply, anyone done business with him?

[piddler]

It is set up as a sit down machine that includes a flat bed attachment as well

[Wizcrafts]

It needs harness feet and a smooth feed dog, plus an edge guide to become a (veg-tan) leather stitcher.

This Juki has the wrong presser feet for most leather work.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[piddler]

Ok, I asked for the experts advise, and I would be stupid not to take it. Thanks for all your help.

[Trox]

Hi Piddler,

I have never seen a original Juki 441 with 9 inch arm before. I never seen it in any Juki web sites either. If this is a rebuilt Chinese nine inch head with some Juki parts inside, it has to be done by a Juki authorized workshop or with a Juki license. Yes the video is the same machine, the face plate looks like a painted original Juki. It is not legal to rebuild machine and change the name, or put a Juki name on a copy machine. This violates several laws included trademarks and EBays own rules. Have you spoken to the seller? there was no questions about this on EBay before I asked this same question. This looks like a professional sewing machine sales man who should know these rules. It is of course possible I am missing something here? thats the reason for this question in the first place. Our dealer should know if this is legal or not.

Thanks

Tor

[Trox]

I asked

"Is this a original Juki machine? or a re-badged Chinese machine?"

The seller claims this is a Chinese made Juki machine.

" This model machine is made in China, not in Japan. Juki has several models both made in Japan and China"

I know they make machines in China, everybody does. However, the answer should be yes or no. It looks to me like this is a answer where its easier to fill in the missing words after-wards; that word will either be "clone or copy"

However I can be totally wrong about this? strange, if Juki have started to make nine inch models we would have heard about it in this forum. They would have used their own subclass labels also, this do not look like a new machine. It is sold as used. A bit of a mystery to me. Thread take-up spring stop and thread guides on the faceplate is off, one of the parts is taped on top of the head. It might be for transports reasons?

Bob"Sewmun" at Toledo or some of our other dealers should have heard about this, if you know anything about this please let us know.

Thanks

Tor

[CowboyBob]

Trox,to make things easier I changed my name to CowboyBob.

Even though I'm a Juki Dealer they never seem to tell anybody much about thier machines,unless I ask,so I'll give them a call tommorrow & find out the story on the 441's.On Juki's other machines they always have a model riveted on.

[piddler]

Cowboy Bob, I called Friday to see what y'all might be able to do within my budget and didnt get much help. Anything you can do for me within my 2000.00 budget shipped to Texas?

[Trox]

Trox,to make things easier I changed my name to CowboyBob.

Even though I'm a Juki Dealer they never seem to tell anybody much about thier machines,unless I ask,so I'll give them a call tommorrow & find out the story on the 441's.On Juki's other machines they always have a model riveted on.

Much appreciated, I will put my dollar on the clone theory. Maybe some original parts on it, that made someone tempted to put the Juki brand on it. Anybody who will bet against?

The CowboyBob name change was a smart move Bob,

Thank you.

Tor

[awharness]

I was going to say I have a short arm clone(sewpro) and a juki tsc 441 and the juki stickers are in blue! I saw this on eBay, and though " damn someones pulling a little trick!" plus the juki has some other stickers, and a plate rivited to it with s# and model... A

Same as all the alders I've owned. Be safe! Go with a dealer! The packages are the best deals going! I've got a small fortune with feet/ feed dogs/ edge guides/ throat plates! It's quite evident that's Steve, or Bob, have a good handle on the needs of most Leather workers!

[piddler]

Found a Cobra 4P I'm probably going to buy if I can get the price right.

[Trox]

You are lucky to have these member dealer nearby that stands behind their products. These dealers will always pick up the phone and help their customers, answer their email. A dealer on the Internet or far away in an other country can ignore you when you need their support. Our member dealers cannot, you can all be sure about that.

Unless you are an experienced operator or mechanic, you will need this support. When your new machine will not sew or you find out there are some parts broken or missing, and the seller will not answer your calls. Then what seemed like a good deal can turn into a nightmare.

The Juki TSC 441 comes standard with blanket feet's, plate and feed-dog,and so does their clones. I had to buy leather attachment and set up my 441 clone myself.

If I lived in the USA I would have saved me the trouble and bought a Cobra 4 or Cowboy 4500 leather machine.

Tor

Edited January 6, 2013 by Trox

[Ken Nelson]

That Robert guy on Ebay has poor feedback, Take the good advice and call one of the dealers on this site, PLEASE!!! Ken

[Trox]

Listen to what Ken says, at least wait until Bob get answer from Juki. Then you will know how trustworthy this seller is. The Cowboy and Cobra dealers has used machines too, and different way of financing them.

[Cobra Steve]

You should call Bob, Ronnie, or myself and get as much info as you can. All of us have good reputations and will help you as much as we can. Steve