A fair Price

[shirleyz]

Okay,

Just made the POW bracelet for a customer, who knew the price I was charging before hand. When I showed him the bracelet he gave me the "we are veterans on fixed incomes line". He wanted to know if I could make them cheaper and dangled the fact that he has lots of buddies, like the proverbial carrot. Below is the reply I sent to him. I would like your opinions on this. Am I wrong?

"To be perfectly honest Dane, These bracelets are not really cost efficient for me to do. I spend roughly eights hours making one, and put about $12 worth of supplies into it. If I charge $55 for it I"m getting a little more than $5 per hour labor. They're not really worth the time spent. My husband thinks I should just take them off my web space, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I'm sorry if the price is too high, I can't make them for less. They take time from other projects. I admire anyone who serves in the armed forces, we are all indebted to them. I think my prices are fair.

I don't make one until it's ordered, that way I can make it to fit your wrist, totally custom. Let me know if you're interested, and if so, your wrist size."

Shirley

[rdb]

What a shame.

We all run into this stuff, and it seems more often nowadays.

Leatherworkers in general have not been all that respected by a great many people. Sure the big names can command that respect and the monies that go with it, but there really is a lack of understanding out there as to just how much work goes into even the simplest of projects. "A laced wallet is how much? I can get one at the local Dept store for $12."

Now, these are the same people who wouldn't even consider trying to talk the Plumber, or the Electrician, or the Mechanic down from their prices, but when it comes to a Craftsman, there is some kind of mentality that we aren't tradesman, that we are some kind of home hobbyist out to screw the public.

And then the very next customer wants to give you a little extra, cause you did such a nice job for them. SO it evens out over time. Don't be too upset at your customer. sometimes it takes a little time for people to learn. The good part is that they will...

Whatever you do, don't back down on the price you have set for yourself. If one person doesn't get it, the next one will.

It's tough out here for a pimp...I mean craftsman...lol

[Michael Sheldon]

Yup, folks just don't understand that there's not much economy of scale in the crafts business. It pretty much takes the same amount of time whether I make 1 or 100. I run into it pretty frequently. A few years ago I even had someone want quantities approaching 1000. He was rather disappointed when I told him the best I could offer him was 10% off. He was sure that by offering that kind of quantity he could get them at 10% of list.

[Johanna]

Shirley- I think you explained yourself well, and probably more graciously than some of us would have. If we don't charge a fair price for our work, we'll be out of business and getting a day job. Keep that thought in mind when you run into people like this.

Johanna

[abn]

Shirley,

I think your message is a good one, and you're wise to let others read it before sending.

With that said, I wonder if you could satisfy this customer by creating something different (i.e., much cheaper and easier to make). Instead of all that braiding, could you get away with simply attaching the POW pin to a plain black strap? Maybe do a little simple stamping for decoration?

I fully agree that the original wristband is worth every penny you're charging, but if he wants something that costs less, maybe you could give him a lesser product?

Just a thought. I'm just a hobbyist, so thank goodness I don't have to grapple with these issues myself!

Best, -Alex

[GampasShop]

I have showed people some of my projects as I get them finished. Some (very few) have done leather tooling in the past, either as a Boy Scout or in 4-H. Others think you have a big stamp that you hit one time and poof there is the design. If you are lucky you will be able to find a single imprint of say a A104 background tool, so they can get some idea of how many taps with the maul it takes to do what we do. It really opens their eyes then when you walk them thru the different steps it takes to do a carving/tooling. After you tell them what it takes from the blank piece of leather to the finished product, they will usually look at it really close and start asking questions.

This has been my experience of late anyway. Ya, maybe you can buy a "Leather" billfold at Folly World for $12. When people ask me why I would spent hours on tooling a billfold, I have the last one that I made/used sitting here on my desk. I say well this one has lasted me 18 years of carrying in my pocket every day. I could still be using it if I would just relace it, but there are a couple of holes at the fold that are gone/wore away.

[pete]

perhaps start with a figure that pays what you feel is fair to you. Say $8-9.00/hr? then add in the cost of the material and add on after that. I charge more for really good calf and kangaroo lace than cheap lace, etc.

just a thought.

pete

[abn]

If you are lucky you will be able to find a single imprint of say a A104 background tool, so they can get some idea of how many taps with the maul it takes to do what we do.

That reminds me of a friend who was recently admiring a handbag I finished up. It had some stamped decoration running down each side, and I showed her that each row involved five different stamps struck a total of 22 times. Adding it all up, the small amount of decoration I did involved over 2,000 strikes of the mallet! She was shocked. Like G.S. mentioned, I think she imagined me feeding the leather into one side of a machine, and it coming out decorated on the other...

[Art]

Hi Shirley,

I think you gave him way more info than he warranted. I've heard many a sob story, and if the cause is good, then I can give, but not labor or product, and the "cause" has to meet my scrutiny. The answer is "No, I can't do that", no explanation is needed. There used to be a joke in retail, "I'm taking a loss on that, but I'll make it up in volume!".

Art

Okay,

Just made the POW bracelet for a customer, who knew the price I was charging before hand. When I showed him the bracelet he gave me the "we are veterans on fixed incomes line". He wanted to know if I could make them cheaper and dangled the fact that he has lots of buddies, like the proverbial carrot. Below is the reply I sent to him. I would like your opinions on this. Am I wrong?

"To be perfectly honest Dane, These bracelets are not really cost efficient for me to do. I spend roughly eights hours making one, and put about $12 worth of supplies into it. If I charge $55 for it I"m getting a little more than $5 per hour labor. They're not really worth the time spent. My husband thinks I should just take them off my web space, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I'm sorry if the price is too high, I can't make them for less. They take time from other projects. I admire anyone who serves in the armed forces, we are all indebted to them. I think my prices are fair.

I don't make one until it's ordered, that way I can make it to fit your wrist, totally custom. Let me know if you're interested, and if so, your wrist size."

Shirley

[BradB]

That reminds me of a friend who was recently admiring a handbag I finished up. It had some stamped decoration running down each side, and I showed her that each row involved five different stamps struck a total of 22 times. Adding it all up, the small amount of decoration I did involved over 2,000 strikes of the mallet! She was shocked. Like G.S. mentioned, I think she imagined me feeding the leather into one side of a machine, and it coming out decorated on the other...

Where do I get this machine you speak of!!!!! I want one!!

[wolvenstien]

Where do I get this machine you speak of!!!!! I want one!!

its called children....

[JRedding]

perhaps start with a figure that pays what you feel is fair to you. Say $8-9.00/hr? then add in the cost of the material and add on after that. I charge more for really good calf and kangaroo lace than cheap lace, etc.

just a thought.

pete

who can work for 8.00 or 9.00 dollars an hour ? McDonalds is paying $10.00 an hour to kids who can't tie their own shoes or complete a single thought here where we live.

[pete]

ok- I'll see your $10.00 and raise it to $20.00.

I was simply giving an example to work from.

By the way- my son works at McDonalds for a summer job.They started him at $7.25/hr.

[whinewine]

Okay,

Just made the POW bracelet for a customer, who knew the price I was charging before hand. When I showed him the bracelet he gave me the "we are veterans on fixed incomes line". He wanted to know if I could make them cheaper and dangled the fact that he has lots of buddies, like the proverbial carrot. Below is the reply I sent to him. I would like your opinions on this. Am I wrong?

"To be perfectly honest Dane, These bracelets are not really cost efficient for me to do. I spend roughly eights hours making one, and put about $12 worth of supplies into it. If I charge $55 for it I"m getting a little more than $5 per hour labor. They're not really worth the time spent. My husband thinks I should just take them off my web space, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I'm sorry if the price is too high, I can't make them for less. They take time from other projects. I admire anyone who serves in the armed forces, we are all indebted to them. I think my prices are fair.

I don't make one until it's ordered, that way I can make it to fit your wrist, totally custom. Let me know if you're interested, and if so, your wrist size."

Shirley

Unfortunately, a lot of people have "entitlement" issues... pushy people from NY & NJ, old farts, 'vet-runs' (as how it's often pronounced), people on welfare, the 'professional poor', & young people who have been told all their lives that they're 'SPECIAL'... [& yes, I am

(a) a veteran,

( an old fart,

© & certainly can often be pushy,

(d) & I'm certainly not wealthy

(e) & I have low tolerance for stupidity & intolerance {... an intolerance intolerant???}].

However, when someone tries to dicker me down, I tell them this isn't Mexico, where haggling is expected, & if they persist with the sob story, I tell them that I left my sad-sounding violin back at the opera, thank you very much, goodbye & have a nice day. And I simply turn away from them & go back to what I was originally doing.

[JRedding]

Sorry Pete, I thought you were being serious. And I'm not incinuating the lousy help they have in our town represents all their employees. Just an example

[Mike Craw]

Shirley,

I just looked at your site again. I guess I only looked at (and drooled over) the seats, but for some reason I never saw the bracelets. They are beautiful, and I can't imagine that you could even do them for that price, let alone be cheerful and respectful in your response to a request to do them for less. I think your answer was just fine. Maybe he'd like a nice rubber 'Live Strong' bracelet...

OH, I'm an old fart, veteran, retired...

Mike

...and I can't spell!

Edited August 21, 2008 by Mike Craw

[Kevin]

I sometimes like to point out that I am not a homeless,12year old in India, who is considered untouchable because he works with dead animal skins. It is going to cost a little more for me to make something. After all I have a 21 year old truck and a $57,000 house to pay for. Please forgive my extravagant lifestyle. Kevin

[pete]

JREDDING_ No need to apologize. My son is really smart and cool and knows that he will have to do what he has to to afford the gas to get to school(and the insurance that we now made him responsible for paying)

as to the ones with whom he works...... they DON'T know how to tie their shoes or complete a sentence!!

I don't eat fast food for that reason alone!!!!

They CAN pick their nose, pass wind AND wrap a double cheese burger simultaneously though.

pete

[Froghunter]

Shirley, I agree with everyone.....Don't compromise!

Your customer wouldn't want a compromise on quality of workmanship, why should we are artisans compromise on our earning a living.

I too believe that if one person won't buy it at the asking price, one will. If not, then I CHOOSE to give it away, donate it, or just hang it on the shelf....But I CHOOSE!

just my $.02

[BradB]

JREDDING_ No need to apologize. My son is really smart and cool and knows that he will have to do what he has to to afford the gas to get to school(and the insurance that we now made him responsible for paying)

as to the ones with whom he works...... they DON'T know how to tie their shoes or complete a sentence!!

I don't eat fast food for that reason alone!!!!

They CAN pick their nose, pass wind AND wrap a double cheese burger simultaneously though.

pete

I think I just gave up fast food as well....

[TroyS]

Ok, if this post offends anyone, please forgive me in advance!

For those people that dangle the proverbial "I've got friends" carrot, Tell your friends to give you some money or help you pay for it. Stop jerking my chain. If you have friends that want some work done, as soon as they pay me, I'll reward you! Until then, you pay full price. I'm not hiring you as my agent nor do I want charity work from you.

Can you imagine calling your electric company and telling them, " look, I really need this electricity, and if you give me a break, I know lots of other people who need electricity! I'll send them over..."

Stick to your guns Shirley! You do amazing work! And that "vet-run" should be honored to wear an item that a true american craftswoman hand-made for them!

That same veteran that's on a fixed income probably drove their Cadillac CTX to the shop ....

Come on, I'm a veteran too, but I don't think the world owes me anything! I did what Idid for the love of my country and freedom! Not so i could get discounts on cool stuff!

Again, If I offended anyone, I am sorry... And if it hurts your feelings, you're guilty too ....

[cem]

I think a link to this cartoon may be in order although directed at the non payers the last panel is fairly fitting http://freelanceswitch.com/page/5/, (Freelance Freedom No 60 scroll down a bit)I've come across this sort of thing with my graphic design work and I have to say you handled the guy perfectly Shirley, you do great work and should be payed accordingly.

Edited August 22, 2008 by cem

[Michael Sheldon]

perhaps start with a figure that pays what you feel is fair to you. Say $8-9.00/hr? then add in the cost of the material and add on after that. I charge more for really good calf and kangaroo lace than cheap lace, etc.

just a thought.

pete

Seriously, if you're only charging $8-$9 an hour, you are seriously ripping yourself off, and may even be losing money. As was said earlier, even fast food joints pay more than that, and it costs them twice that for an employee. As a self-employed business, you have your overhead (property cost, electricity, phone, internet etc), your tools, tax and licenses, health costs, etc to cover.

Also keep in mind the time it takes when you're not actually pounding leather. The time talking/writing to the customer, the time packing it up and shipping it out, The time keeping your books, the time you spend ordering supplies, the time spent cleaning up your shop, the time spent learning new skills/keeping up with your trade, etc. When you actually add it up, you'll find it's a lot more time than you think.

I won't do a non custom job for anything less than $35 an hour. Custom work starts at $50, and includes all of the time it takes me to conceptualize, design and lay it out.

You have to stop thinking of it as your pay as an employee, and start thinking of it as the cost of a business owner *paying* an employee.

[TwinOaks]

Shirley, I haven't seen the bracelet in question, but I'll add this. If the guy asks again about making it cheaper, tell him "YES!"

Then proceed to explain why you made it the way you did, sparing no detail of the amount of work, or the quality of materials. Then say yes, you CAN make it more cheaply by using inferior materials and a simplified, less attractive way of assembly. But you WON'T because of "[ insert your feelings about POW/MIA Soldiers]" and they deserve the best. Let him try to argue the price after that.

Troy, I really like the way you expressed your thoughts on this.

[BradB]

Shirley,

I don't think you are wrong one bit!! If you did cut him a break on the price he would run off to "all of his buddies" and tell them that you gave him a break and they would then all want it and they would tell people and so and so.... Stick to your price, matter of fact you should bump up the price for him because he has wasted your time haggling about a known price and made you wonder if you are wrong and had you worrying about it!!!

With that said I would also like to say not all Veterans are like that, I am a veteran and I don't want anything from anyone, except maybe a thank you for defending our country if someone feels like saying it! Like Troy and every other veteran that I know, I did it for the love of my country and freedom. So please do not think all veteran's feel that something is owed them.

Brad