Advice On Heavy Duty Sewing Machine In Europe

[bikemaniac]

Hi,

I have been reading quite a lot in this forum already trying to get an overview on sewing machines. On a hobby basis I have been sewing by hand for various small projects the last 15 years. Right now I'm working on my biggest hobby project so far: Leaf spring gaiters for my truck. I would estimate that the project has required me to punch approx 4000 holes and subsequently sew 4000 holes by hand. I know, this is quite ambitious, but I have the time to do it, however such a project incl designing, cutting, sewing etc will take up 2 weeks of work. For sewing I use the method with 2 rounded needles and a waxed polyester thread having a labelled diameter of 1 mm.

My recent project can be seen here:

http://forum.buschta...cht-t38764.html

Previously I have also been confronted with projects where I needed to sew heavy materials such as multiple plys of jeans fabric, reinforced vinyl and heavy canvas, but these projects always stranded because:

Most people own a sewing machine. Like I do: I own an old manual Pfaff with a hand wheel. But it is way too small for my hobby projects.

This is why I'm considering a heavy duty sewing machine for my oncoming projects.

I have some requirements:

1 I live en Denmark, Europe. The sewing machine should be rather easy to get over here. It is very easy for me to buy something in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, maybe UK, Sweden etc. I'm not just limited to Denmark. Maybe shipping from USA is an option, but then I have to pay taxes and duty etc which I don't like :-).

2 I'm not in desperate need of a machine. I can easily wait 1-2 years to get the right one.

3 I want the machine to be manufactured in Europe, USA or Japan. I don't want to support any Chinese products. Thus, I prefer a used German machine over a brand new Chinese machine.

4 It is my impression from reading this forum that I need a walking foot machine (triple feed), however I could use some advice on which type of machine. It is my impression that a cylinder bar sewing machine is the most versatile one: you can always fabricate a small wooden table yourself if you want to turn it into a flatbed.

5 I believe that I will never run into projects sewing leather/vinyl/canvas thicker than 10mm (3/8"). However it would be nice to use thick threads such as my waxed thread (without wax). I really have a hard time understanding thread designations, but I believe that 1 mm threads are something like #415 threads.

Questions based on requirements:

A I have found some sewing machines such as Juki 441, Adler 267, Adler 269, Adler 167, Adler 69, Adler 467, Adler 205-370, Pfaff 545, Pfaff 345, Pfaff 335, Pfaff 1245, Pfaff 1445, Singer 111W, Seiko CH8B etc etc. Those are just some interesting ones I stubled upon. I am very much open for other suggestions - even non motorized ones. Would it be possible to group them into maximum and minimum thread sizes to get an overview of their range?

B If a machine is good at sewing leather, will it also be able to sew vinyl and canvas? Maybe with some minor modifications?

C What type of motor is needed if you want to sew extremely slow, like 1 stitch pr second?

Thank you very much for a great forum,

Lucas

[Jimbob]

Hello to Denmark....look for a Adler 267 in gray color, the white ones are China made, still good machines!

These machines are good for max 3/8 or less.....the thread you are looking for in 415 is waaaay to big for this Adler....you need a Adler 205 to handle this thread size!

And these suckers are expensive, now made in Chechien....not Germany but still very good quality.

There are many good used machines to buy in Germany ( I am from there...) but it all comes down how much u want to spend.

Make sure u buy from a good dealer with good service!

Pfaffs are good ones too, dont know much about them....I am an Adler fan, haha

[Trox]

Hi,

I have been reading quite a lot in this forum already trying to get an overview on sewing machines. On a hobby basis I have been sewing by hand for various small projects the last 15 years. Right now I'm working on my biggest hobby project so far: Leaf spring gaiters for my truck. I would estimate that the project has required me to punch approx 4000 holes and subsequently sew 4000 holes by hand. I know, this is quite ambitious, but I have the time to do it, however such a project incl designing, cutting, sewing etc will take up 2 weeks of work. For sewing I use the method with 2 rounded needles and a waxed polyester thread having a labelled diameter of 1 mm.

My recent project can be seen here:

http://forum.buschta...cht-t38764.html

Previously I have also been confronted with projects where I needed to sew heavy materials such as multiple plys of jeans fabric, reinforced vinyl and heavy canvas, but these projects always stranded because:

Most people own a sewing machine. Like I do: I own an old manual Pfaff with a hand wheel. But it is way too small for my hobby projects.

This is why I'm considering a heavy duty sewing machine for my oncoming projects.

I have some requirements:

1 I live en Denmark, Europe. The sewing machine should be rather easy to get over here. It is very easy for me to buy something in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, maybe UK, Sweden etc. I'm not just limited to Denmark. Maybe shipping from USA is an option, but then I have to pay taxes and duty etc which I don't like :-).

2 I'm not in desperate need of a machine. I can easily wait 1-2 years to get the right one.

3 I want the machine to be manufactured in Europe, USA or Japan. I don't want to support any Chinese products. Thus, I prefer a used German machine over a brand new Chinese machine.

4 It is my impression from reading this forum that I need a walking foot machine (triple feed), however I could use some advice on which type of machine. It is my impression that a cylinder bar sewing machine is the most versatile one: you can always fabricate a small wooden table yourself if you want to turn it into a flatbed.

5 I believe that I will never run into projects sewing leather/vinyl/canvas thicker than 10mm (3/8"). However it would be nice to use thick threads such as my waxed thread (without wax). I really have a hard time understanding thread designations, but I believe that 1 mm threads are something like #415 threads.

Questions based on requirements:

A I have found some sewing machines such as Juki 441, Adler 267, Adler 269, Adler 167, Adler 69, Adler 467, Adler 205-370, Pfaff 545, Pfaff 345, Pfaff 335, Pfaff 1245, Pfaff 1445, Singer 111W, Seiko CH8B etc etc. Those are just some interesting ones I stubled upon. I am very much open for other suggestions - even non motorized ones. Would it be possible to group them into maximum and minimum thread sizes to get an overview of their range?

B If a machine is good at sewing leather, will it also be able to sew vinyl and canvas? Maybe with some minor modifications?

C What type of motor is needed if you want to sew extremely slow, like 1 stitch pr second?

Thank you very much for a great forum,

Lucas

Hei Lucas,

If you need a cylinder bed triple feed for that thread size your options are the Juki 441 or the Adler 205-370 (or a Chinese clone from one of them). I do have a lot of German machines my self and I love them, I also have a Chinese clone machine that work very well. These two above models are the industry standard of heavy saddler's machines today, there are a couple of other brands of heavy triple feeds (lock stitch machines) as well but they are not very common. The Adler (Now Dürkopp Adler) would be the most expensive of them, they both have the same shuttle (and bobbin obviously). They have a foot lift on max 20 mm and can handle Tex 415 (European size: tkt 8 polyester ).

I understand you skepticisms toward Chinese products, I have been there my self. However, today almost all German machines are produced in China. Industrial machines are made for production use 8 hours, 7 days a week. Ask yourself how many hours a day your machine will run. I ensure you the quality of todays Chinese machines are more than good enough for a saddler's work shop, It will be out dated before you break it. The most important thing to remember buying Chinese is to choose something with support. The most popular heavy saddler's machine today is Chinese clone based on the Juki TSC 441, it is a pimped up version with a higher foot lift and set up for leather work. This means a different needle plate, feed dog, feet's and in some cases a bigger hand wheel. Examples is Cobra 3, Cobra 4, Cowboy 3500, Cowboy 4500 and Techsew 4100, Techsew 5100. Artisan 3000, 3200 and 4000. They are all 441 clones with 9 and 16,5 inch arms.

Both the Adler and the Juki are originally set up to sew fabrics, the needle plate (nåle plate), feed dog (under transportør) and feet's (over transportør) has to be changed to sew leather. For fabrics we use segregated feet's and feed dog, for leather they have to be smooth. The segregated ones will mark up the leather badly. Original Juki or Adler attachments are very expensive (price on these attachments from Dürkopp Adler will be around 10000 DKK), Chinese ones a lot less http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb-acc-pack.html http://www.leathermachineco.com/catalog.php?category=11. They will also fit the original Juki machine. New price for a Juki TSC 441 is about 4300 to 4600 Euro head only, the Adler 205-370 costs much more. Then you will need a table motor etc. Price for a 441, 16,5 inch clone machine (set up for leather) is about 2600 USD, 9 inch arm is 500 $ less. Clones are also available in Germany, France and the UK. Sieck International in Germany sells the Cowboy machine under their own name http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/sewing/ . Price with clutch motor is about 2000 Euro, with the German Efka pro position motor (best available) 2500 Euro. They are not set up for leather work, but comes with a stock blanket plate and feet's. They also sell used German machines.

About motors;

You will not be able to control a clutch motor at slow speed (unless you practice 8 hours a day for a very long time), you need a good servo motor to have slow speed control. When Chinese machines now have acceptable quality, I cannot say the same thing about their motors. They are cheap and will need a speed reducer (V belt gear wheel) to be stronger and have better low speed control. A option is a pro position motor like the Efka 1550 or Equivalent in Ho Sing. With this motor your needle will either stop up or down, and you have a lot of other options. You will also find these motors made in China, however they will not compare.

You will find all the info you need about your questions in the pinned post top of this forum. I receive the same questions almost every second day. In your case all of your listed machines will be able to sew true 10 mm. However, not with that thread size. Only the above mention two machine will be able to exceed tex 210. They are both heavy stitcher's (Grovsøm maskiner på Norsk), have large horizontal shuttle hooks that ables them to handle heavy thread tension. The rest of your list is classified as upholstery type of machines with vertical rotating hooks. The last category you will find pretty cheap used here in Europe, the heavy stitcher's are always expensive all over the world (They are not that many and there is always demand of them from people who want to repair their horse tack etc.).

I do not know you budget, a cheaper option is to buy a older heavy stitcher with single or double feed. Like a Singer 45K, Adler 5 or Adler 105. If you can manage with a flatbed they will cost less. These machine will do the same job, but will mark the bottom side of your wegtan leather. If you are sewing crom tan and upholstery leather this will not be a problem. I do have three older heavy stitcher's for sale (maybe one is sold already) Adler cl. 5-27 cylinderbed with all saddler's attachments, Adler 105-25 cylinderbed and a Adler 204-64 flatbed. (Two of them is double feed and one has a jump foot, they will all handle tex 415) I have not advertised any of them yet, if you want more info send me an PM. I am based in Oslo.

I hope this will answer some of your questions.

Lykke til.

Tor

[Cobra Steve]

Hi Lucas. Hi Tor. We ship to Europe frequently, and we are very familiar with your needs. I do not believe that there is duty to Denmark, only your VAT. Please contact us for more info. Thanks, Steve

Edited February 7, 2013 by Cobra Steve

[MavericKLeathers]

Cobra Steve,

Your reply piqued my interest because I, too, live in Europe (Austria) am looking for my first sewing machine; which will be used for wallets, cell phone cases, purses, etc. So, I don't need something that will sew through plywood or license plates (like one does in a YouTube video). I just need a good machine capable of doing the job.

My question is: Even if your prices are better than those in Europe, which is where I live, wouldn't the shipping make the final purchase price of your machines WAY too much for those on a limited budget?

I guess what I'm really asking is: Why should we pay the shipping? What makes doing so worth while to those of us in Europe?

Thanks,

LJ Stevens

Edited March 6, 2015 by MavericKLeathers

[Constabulary]

The current €/$ exchange rate is quite bad for imorting goods from the US - unfortunately!

Keep in mind that you have to add import taxes and VAT (21% in Austria as far as I know) to the total amount including the shipping costs!!!

Sewing machine

+ shipping

= invoiced amount

+ imoprt tax (3.7% afaik)

+ VAT

= total amount

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&SimDate=20150307&Area=US&Taric=84522900&LangDescr=de

[MavericKLeathers]

Thanks, Constabulary. You pretty much confirmed what I suspected to be the case: Importing from the States would not make financial sense at this time.

Frankly, if the numbers were better, I'd be tempted to buy from Cobra Steve.

Oh well, it is what it is. So, I have to try to find a good machine and dealer in Europe; preferably Austria but I'm willing to work with whomever has good prices and service.

Do you know any dealers selling in Europe who match that description?

Mav

[Constabulary]

Yeah the current exchange rate really sucks! (Sorry Steve)

Ckeck with Sieck: www.sieck.de

They are located in Bayreuth - maybe not too far away from you.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Constabulary

[Thor]

I found this shop today. www.sewtex.de

Don't know if they are any good and it looks like he's only carrying clones, but I thought I let you know. Maybe this is something for you.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Thor