Vinegaroon And Boning

[J Hayes]

I'm going to start using vinegaroon. This is what I think I should do, stitch everything, wet and mold doing all boning, dip in groon about 20-30 seconds wait about a minute rinse in baking soda water then a clear water rinse.

With all that extra moisture will my boning be lost?

Thanks

Jeremy

[D Fingers]

I'm my experience no. I all ways put the gun back in the holster before setting it aside to dry to double check fit, you could retouch boning if needed at this time. If using real gun bag it you don't want vinegaroon on the gun.

[J Hayes]

I'm my experience no. I all ways put the gun back in the holster before setting it aside to dry to double check fit, you could retouch boning if needed at this time. If using real gun bag it you don't want vinegaroon on the gun.

Do you use the baking soda rinse as well?

[D Fingers]

Yes. I used 1/2 cup baking soda to a gallon of water or something like that.

[chiefjason]

The baking soda rinse, or dip, is mandatory. It kills the chemical reaction between the groon and the leather.

You have to oil it too. The groon can strip the natural oils out. You may notice that it looks or feels drier than it should after the groon has dried. I started using 2 light coats of neatsfoot oil. As a bonus it deepens the black too. I usually waited 24 hours after grooning before oiling.

And don't go into it firm with your times. I brushed my groon on with a sponge brush. Sometimes one coat and it looked done. Sometimes 2. Sometimes 15 minutes later I still have spots not colored. A lot depends on the hide. And if your thread has a lot of wax you may notice that the sewn areas resist the groon longer. Though that may change if you are dipping. There were times I had to take a fingernail and work the light spot to remove the wax so the groon would take. It will take some trial and error to see how it works.

[steelhawk]

Question on the baking soda. When I used it, I got little white specks that I didn't like so I stopped using it. My water is 8.5 ph and I have been depending on that to stop any reaction. Am I ok, or should I go back to the baking soda?

[mlapaglia]

Go back to the baking soda but it sounds like you have too much soda in the water. That will cause the white specs. I use a heaping tablespoon per quart of water and that works fine for me.

[Chef niloc]

A few drops of ammonia In water, 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. Just to give you a ratio. Would neutralize any acid far better than baking soda ever could, And I doubt that small of an amount of ammonia would have much smell to it. Also note that vegetable tanned leather is on acidic side and not neutral. It's acidic state helps to preserve it. One of the things that the various leather conditioners do is to restore this acidic pH that might have been lost do to time or exposure to various alkalines. Look at it this way, we worry about leather drying out, right? It's oils that keep it from doing so. Thangs that are negative in pH or basic break down oils and make them a water soluble. Think about how soaps are made, add sodium hydroxide (strong base) to acetic oils.I personally don't feel the need to neutralize a week acid like vinegar but to each his own. It's actually the dissolved iron that's causing the reaction With the acids in the tannings of the leather. The vinegar is just used to dissolve the iron, If you're worried about the vinegar being too ascitic just cut it with distilled water to begin with. If you're worried about that cutting down the strength of the roon, then just make a stronger, more concentrated roon, then cut it, that's what I do. I actually use a stronger vinegar 7% compared to the normal 3%. I add ultra fine steel wool one pad at a time. When it's Dissolved I add another, I keep doing this till the woll pads won't dissolve any more. I then strain the liquid through a coffee filter, then add 2 cups of distilled water per cup of vinegar Iron solution. This roon produces a almost jet black look and has almost no smell to it at all, and its only 1.75 in PH. If you want a lighter color roon just add more distilled water. I have found this way too be more controlled and have less odor, However it does take longer to make in the beginning.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Chef niloc

[J Hayes]

A few drops of ammonia In water, 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. Just to give you a ratio. Would neutralize any acid far better than baking soda ever could, And I doubt that small of an amount of ammonia would have much smell to it. Also note that vegetable tanned leather is on acidic side and not neutral. It's acidic state helps to preserve it. One of the things that the various leather conditioners do is to restore this acidic pH that might have been lost do to time or exposure to various alkalines. Look at it this way, we worry about leather drying out, right? It's oils that keep it from doing so. Thangs that are negative in pH or basic break down oils and make them a water soluble. Think about how soaps are made, add sodium hydroxide (strong base) to acetic oils.I personally don't feel the need to neutralize a week acid like vinegar but to each his own. It's actually the dissolved iron that's causing the reaction With the acids in the tannings of the leather. The vinegar is just used to dissolve the iron, If you're worried about the vinegar being too ascitic just cut it with distilled water to begin with. If you're worried about that cutting down the strength of the roon, then just make a stronger, more concentrated roon, then cut it, that's what I do. I actually use a stronger vinegar 7% compared to the normal 3%. I add ultra fine steel wool one pad at a time. When it's Dissolved I add another, I keep doing this till the woll pads won't dissolve any more. I then strain the liquid through a coffee filter, then add 2 cups of distilled water per cup of vinegar Iron solution. This roon produces a almost jet black look and has almost no smell to it at all, and its only 1.75 in PH. If you want a lighter color roon just add more distilled water. I have found this way too be more controlled and have less odor, However it does take longer to make in the beginning.

I like your scientific approach, how are you measuring the ph?

I put 4 pads of 0000 steel wool torn in bits into a gallon of vinegar, after a day it produced a nice deep black on some scrap with about a 30 second dip.

Jeremy

[Chef niloc]

I'm using a stronger acid but I get one if the big bags if woll (think its a lb?) into a gal. of vinegar. I do it slow to cut down on the time it takes filtering it, about a week. I could just dump the whole bag in but it would take a long time as the will would not have as much surface area (that's why we use the 0000 stuff). What I have been meaning to try is to see if any other mettles make difrent "dye's". Using bronze wool comes to mind, I would think it would give a green, brown, blue type color compared to the blackish red iron makes.

[Chef niloc]

O I didn't answer your question, I use ph test strips, the kind you would get in a chemistry lab.

[J Hayes]

Thanks!

I've been told copper in vinegar will yield a teal color, but I haven't tried it.

[Chef niloc]

Thanks!

I've been told copper in vinegar will yield a teal color, but I haven't tried it.

I believe that, the way it seems to me is that the "dye" color reflects the oxidized color of metal. So aluminum or tin might lighten the color of leather since they oxide is white? That could come in handy if that's the case. Be it would be an expensive "dye" to make silver should produce a very deep black. The thing I like most about using the roon that that the color Is very deep and consistent, it's easy to work with, and doesn't rub off or wash out.

[J Hayes]

That's why I wanted to start using roon, lack of rub off and color throughout. I would be great to find other formulas that work the same way.

[Bobby hdflame]

I have been using Vinegaroon myself for several reasons. I wanted to share my experiences with you too.

Someone said not to let the Vinegaroon come in contact with your gun. I don't remember exactly why I had an LCP in a pocket holster without it being in a plastic bag, but it was for a short time and the Vinegaroon caused some removal and light rust of the finish. Lesson learned!

Other things I've experienced:

The vinegar smell does go away after a while.

I have used baking soda washes and not, and have not noticed any difference in the finished product. Maybe it will show up years down the road?? I did use neatsfoot oil after vinegaroon. The oil also turns the finished product a much darker black.

Wet form and bone before vinegaroon. I think the vinegaroon adds some water resistance to the leather. I also leave the gun in the holster while it dries. I vinegaroon after it dries from wet forming and boning.

Since the iron in the vinegar reacts with the tannins in the leather to turn it black, rusty water could be used instead and avoid the vinegar smell. Will Ghormely shows this on his website. He uses a steel barrel with scrap metal in it to dye holsters. Here's his how to. It's close to the bottom of the page. http://www.willghormley-maker.com/MakingHOGRig.html

[url=http://www.willghormley-maker.com/MakingHOGRig.html%20%20I][/url] I have not personally tried this but it seems to work well for him. He also shows his technique to age the holster by rubbing wax in areas that you want it to look worn. This keeps the vinegaroon from absorbing into the leather which is what some of you have experienced while using waxed thread.

You will/can get some black on your hands when using the vinegaroon but it washes/wears off pretty quickly. I have not experienced it wearing off onto clothing after it completely dries. I have had Fiebing's Professional Oil Dye and the USMC Black wear off especially on belts even after thorough drying and buffing and sealing with Leather Balm w/Atom Wax.

You can Vinegaroon after stitching without turning your natural colored thread, black. Can't do that the with dye!

You can submerge your leather or brush it on. Depending on what I'm dyeing, I've done both with equally good results.

And another reason I like using Vinegaroon....it's cheap to make!

All in all, I like it and have used it more than Fiebings since I first tried it!

BTW, using other metals does sound interesting. Be sure to post your findings.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Bobby hdflame

[Heiney]

Ok I know this is an old post but I just mixed a batch of "copperoon". I'll post back with results.