Factory Vs. Custom/handmade Tools

[eLw]

I agree that we can't say handmade good, machine made bad, on an overall level. I know what CNC machines are capable of. I have, however, seen some pretty poor mass produced machined tools. I've noticed that even Craftool is coming out with a handmade line of their stamps. Care taken in the making is what it's all about, as Robert said in a previous post. I believe three words are the key here: quality, quality, quality. No one wants to work with a poor tool. Quality, whether it comes by hand or by CNC, is something all leatherworkers want and need in their tools. There are some great stamps being turned out by both methods. However we turn out quality is the key. Whether we're Toyota with kaizen, or a master tool maker with hand held gages, I believe that quality is something all leather stamp makers should strive for. I applaud the advances in CNC, and though we're a small handmade leather stamp company, we strive for the same thing every day. Nice thread, and as been said before, obviously not the last word on the subject.

Andy Hopkins

Welker Handmade Leather Stamps

[bizbeblu]

Andy,

You have certainly nailed it. The three most important things in the creation of anything are quality, quality, quality. (Now I might make an exception for say sand bagging a rapidly rising river to try to save the town. In that case it would be sand bag, sand bag, sand bag No one can ever accuse me of not being a tool aficionado. As a carpenter/builder of some 40 years experience I have got the best of every thing and in some cases more than one.

I'm trying to get a handle on how much difference a - let's call them handmade, artisan made, non-massproduced or whatever - and the Craptools I currently own. Clearly, with the possible exception of the Al Stohlman stuff, it's all made at the lowest possible price. I'm sure better tools can assist in finer work. With the Craptools at least I can make the long drive to the big city and pick the stamp up and examine it. For others, like yourself, how do I know what I'm getting, and perhaps most important if the stamps are $25+ @ which tools are going to make the most difference in my work? In my thinking bevelers are among the most important (I do a lot of old school floral and such). I have I guess 5 Tandy models only one of which is worth a ****. Then I think of some of the erratic stuff I get from basket weave tools. I'm convinced that they are not bilaterally symmetrical.

I really do want better tools in no small part because of how long I have them in my hand and also to make finer products. Perhaps some of the tool makers here can make suggestions of what would be the best pieces to start with and how to know what I'm getting. (Is there a return policy perhaps?)

Robert

You are of course absolutely correct that CNC can make crap. It is a function of the design, the quality of the programming that runs the machine, how well the machine is maintained, and of course the quality of the raw material going in. CNC's strength is control of repeatability and we've all seen in say WallyWorld 10,000 absolutely identical ugly widgets.

[Chipper]

I like Barry King tools. Yes, they cost more than machine made tools but, for me, BK tools are a superior value for these reasons:

1. As a buyer I know exactly how the tools are made and the metals from which they are forged.
2. They have a life-time warranty. If the tool wears out or breaks, which none of mine have BK will replace it at no charge for as long as I am alive. The exception being that a buyer can't expect to return an abused tool and expect a free replacement.
3. I also find value in being able to call Brad at Barry King Tools. He knows everything regarding the tools and is gracious. Try finding someone with his knowledge at too many of the machine made outlet stores.
4. I am confident that whatever I buy from BK I will only have to buy it once.

I tend to choose quality and service over price. It took a lot and I mean a lot of misspent money before I attained the previously mentioned tendency. A hard lesson learned.

Chipper

[mikeyes]

I'm just starting out leather carving after a long hiatus and out of pure nostalgia I bought stamping tools made by Tandy before 1963 - I was an avid leather worker from 1958-1961 when all my tools were stolen - just to combat my sense of loss from that incident.There seems to be a distinct difference between those tools and today's Tandy tools.

Is the difference between the vintage tools and handmade tools enough to switch (once I can find the money, of course) if I can restore my old skills with lots of practice? I'd like to hear a few opinions on the differences as my understanding is that many of the older tools were also partially hand made.

Thanks

Mike Keyes

[OdinUK]

I got my first tools from my gran who bought Craftool in the 60s and 70s, and as I required more I bought the same brand from Tandys and I noticed a huge difference in quality of some of the tools. The new ones just aren't as good. Matting tools dont have the same sharpness the old ones had. Sometimes I find there is too much chrome so the pattern is less well defined.

I recently bought some stainless bargrounders, a steep beveler and a raiser from Gomph Hackbarth and these are far superior to any of the standard craftool tools I have. In future I will only buy handmade tools unless its a CNC made stamp. The extra cost is will worth it in my opinion. I'm not saying dont buy cheaper mass made tools, they are ideal for getting started and general use.

[Greywolf]

I am and always have used Tandy craft tools I don't have a problem with them yet but I can see that I will need to upgrade to better tools in the future, the new professional line is supposed to be a lot better so I might buy a couple and do side by side comparison. The handmade tools are the best as I understand it but if manufacturers start using CNC machines I think those tools will take over the market if there QA is good. I used to be a CNC operator and you just can't beat the work these machines do if the design is right. Bottom line is that Tandy tools are great for a beginner to a near advanced leathercrafter but when you get experience you want to upgrade to better tools, it's like comparing a Chinese made micrometer, it'll work just great but then you use someone's Starret micrometers and your hooked, even though they are a lot more expensive and you are at least paying some what for the name, it's still a far better tool!

[retiredff]

I understand all of the responses on this subject, however, for the beginner or even advanced hobbyist I can't do $25 per BK tool vs a pre-'63 craftool on ebay that are in 20+ lots I can buy for $2-3 each. These pre'63 tools might need to have some rust removed, but for practical and financial purposes, they work fine and have put out countless leather pieces since they were made. If you have a production shop where these tools are tax deductible that might be a reason to upgrade or if your ideas there are no tools available and a custom tool is required. With my limited experience I think practice, practice and more practice and some GOOD leather makes more difference that a $25 BK basketweave stamp. Most people that are buying a tooled custom belt have no idea if the tools you used are '63 or BK's newest. I've always leaned toward being cheap, OK, I squeak when I walk I'm so tight, but the collection I have of mostly pre-'63 (Craftool Co. no letter prefix) and Craftool Co. USA (with letter prefix) and I have had no issues with the tools! Some of the lots I bought there were the newer Craftool USA/Craftool that look off color to me and I have compared say a pre-'63 #400 veiner with a NEW V400 and there is a difference in the impression. I have read the pre-'63 tools no 2 are alike because they were hand made, not stamped. I'm at the point now I don't buy lots of the old tools anymore because I end up with over half or more in duplicates and have to resell them, not for profit, just break even, and sometimes that is difficult.

Just my $0.02

Tony

[TinkerTailor]

I have a craftool co 548 geometric that is so crooked, the machine operator had to be drunk. It is so obviously skillfully manually machined, the faces are all dead flat and the edges are all sharp however the angles of everything are skewed from the square portion in the middle and one side has a tilt........ I can make it work, and it makes a nice mark, but if you turn while working your pattern will look like you were drunk doing it....

[Art]

Greywolf,

Look at a new Starrett Micrometer and notice the Made in China on it. Oh tool god, say it isn't so, but it is.

Tony,

Barry King uses a machining center and a CNC Lathe. When making detailed tools, you can't take much of a cut, so it takes a while, hence they are $40 a tool when you add in marketing costs etc. Still a bargain when a Bob Beard basket or geometric can go North of $100.

It is a little hard finding good pre-'63 basketweave or geometric stamps. There are also precious few pre-'63 tool lots going for $2-$3 apiece, I know, I watch those carefully. Still, if you take your time and fill out your collection slowly, even if a basketweave stamp will cost you $15-$20 for a good pre-'63, it is money well spent.

Art

[retiredff]

Art,

Just scored a 'LOT' last evening on evil bay. There were 18 pre-'63 tools and they cost me $3.20 each, shipping included. That is alot less than I can buy any tool anywhere. The tool numbers were:

103-3

103

103 1/2

104

204

207

349

422 RARE

431

444 RARE (NOT D444) I think it's a starburst or camo

451

524 RARE? 6 point star I think

701

705

812

816

851

877 RARE

7 of the 18 I already have and will sell off any duplicates and hopefully break even. I won't know for sure the number of duplicates until I get the tools and verify the numbers the seller posted.

I have some pre-63 on ebay now and the response even at $2-3 each has been poor, maybe because XMAS is close?

Tony

Edited December 21, 2015 by retiredff