Saddle Stitch Is This Correct ?

[Invasion]

I'm trying to perfect my saddle stitch today. I seem to have trouble;with the back looking the same as front.

I would love my stitching to look like Nigel Armitage's, and that is the goal, I have set myself. Nigel's workmanship just amazes me and is totally outstanding!

I am using Tiger thread and John James harness needles. I think the front is correct just not sure about the back ?

I have attached two photos so you can see the front of the stiching and then the back any suggestions ???

[prc77ro]

If you are using an awl, it looks like you don't have the angle quite right, also a groover will make a big difference with helping your front stitches lay neatly in the front.

[EricIsaiah]

You know, I have the same "problem." Though I don't really mind it too much, since the way the back looks isn't bad, just different. It can be a bit annoying when doing things like wallets, when the back of the stitch is meant to be exposded as well. Any info/opinions on this would be appreciated.

Personally, I prefer the staggered look to the stitches, like you've acheived on the front, which is why i don't use a groover. The groove makes the stitches align more and eliminate that cool staggered look.

[Invasion]

If you are using an awl, it looks like you don't have the angle quite right, also a groover will make a big difference with helping your front stitches lay neatly in the front.

Hi, I used a Dixon pricking iron and then obviously the Awl. I didn't want the stitches to lay in a groove; I can do that.

I was after the the traditional English saddle stitch like Nigel Armitage does

Thanks for your input

You know, I have the same "problem." Though I don't really mind it too much, since the way the back looks isn't bad, just different. It can be a bit annoying when doing things like wallets, when the back of the stitch is meant to be exposded as well. Any info/opinions on this would be appreciated.

Personally, I prefer the staggered look to the stitches, like you've acheived on the front, which is why i don't use a groover. The groove makes the stitches align more and eliminate that cool staggered look.

It's driving me mad. If that's the way it was meant to be that would be ok

I really like the staggered look like you say it is much nicer looking. I have tried putting in the knot like Nigel does on some work and also I have tried when starting with right hand putting left needle on top and under before passing left one back through ???

[cloverpatch]

Why do you think that the back should not look like yours does. Mine looks that way too and I think it is because the front stitch is on the top and so pushes the stitch coming out of the back down. Another factor, I think, is that the flesh-side hole is not on the slant as it is on the grain side. I don't know if this is a correct analysis, but that is what I think so far.

Cheers.

[Invasion]

Why do you think that the back should not look like yours does. Mine looks that way too and I think it is because the front stitch is on the top and so pushes the stitch coming out of the back down. Another factor, I think, is that the flesh-side hole is not on the slant as it is on the grain side. I don't know if this is a correct analysis, but that is what I think so far.

Cheers.

Your analysis would make sense.

I'm sure, on a video Nigel had done on saddle stitch, when he showed the back it was the same as the front side ?? I may be wrong though.

I will go and have another look. Maybe I'm wrong and my stitching is perfect

[Fowlingpiece]

I am trained in the traditional English saddler style like Nigel. As long as you are repeating the same loop and placing and pulling your needles the same every time you will be fine. It appears from your pictures you are already doing that. If so, then I would be looking at the angle in which you are using your awl. Not just the tilt to match the prick angle but making sure to push exactly perpendicular to the job every time.

Hope this makes sense.

James Rogers

[Fowlingpiece]

Also....keeping the stitch line close to the clam edge and the clams upright helps this.

[gmace99]

When you pull both your threads through. Pull the left one towards the floor and the right one upwards. that should help. The other thing you should do, is when you put your left needle half way through, turn the right thread over the top of the needle. Do that every time and it should work out for you.

Hope it helps. I teach this stuff face to face but it ain't always easy to explain in text.

[Django57]

Hope you find the answer to your question as my attempts are the same as yours , i have followed all Nigel's examples and the only difference is he tends to show his examples with two pieces of veg tanned with the rough side in the middle if that makes sense . This video of a French gentleman doing the saddle stitch is worth watching but again he sandwiches two pieces of leather together but near the end he shows the back which is not quite as neat but he still gets the slant . Nigel is very helpful and he does answer questions if you ask on his videos .

[DavidL]

I prefer Ian atkinson's method.

The different ways I have tried that worked for me.

right hand needle enters:

on top of the hole.

on top of the hole casting the thread away from you. django's method.

on the bottom of the hole.

on the bottom of the hole casting the thread towards you. Ian atkinson's method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zTOqJCWbfY&spfreload=10.

[DavidL]

Stitching on thin leathers I always go without casting The backside will never be angled like the front when not casting. At best the backside stitching will have a 15 degree angle. With very thin threads there could be a change (.52mm for 6 SPI)

On leathers that are 2 - 2.5 ounces I do not cast the thread as the front stitches become flat.

Leathers that are 2.5 ounces and up there is no benefit in my opinion not to cast the thread, some do not cast the thread, so its a matter of preference.

For me personally when I cast the thread on 2.5- 3 ounces and up the front side does not differ drastically than not casting the thread (there is a difference on some leathers but a small one), the difference is so small if I was to stitch one sample with casting and one without it would be hard to guess. On the backside of the casted stitching the stitches are angled and tidy.

Edited April 17, 2015 by DavidL

[King's X]

I figure I would throw my .02 cents on hand stitching. Here is a video that I saw back when Serge created it. Check it out

[unicornleather]

Video is not a good example of a professional hand stitcher.

You use the awl as you stitch, therefore holding the awl in right hand and one needle, the other needle in the left hand.

He is also looping the thread over itself the wrong way, you loop forwards not backwards. You also pull up with the left hand and down with the right as you pull the threads tight.

You simply wouldn't have the time to stop, pre awl, then fiddle around with needles and no awl if you have to make a few bridles or harness each week.

[DavidL]

One thing that helped more than I though it would is sharpening the awl tip to a fatter profile, not a pointy tip. When sharpened correctly the rounded awl tip will penetrate just as well, only its fits perfectly in the pricking hole marks.

Search on youtube leathertoolz, he has a video on the subject.

[MonicaJacobson]

I had never watched any of Ian's videos until yesterday. I watched Nigel's videos, and while they were extremely helpful, I was still getting some inconsistent stitching. Ian's method really helped, and with a combination of that and paying closer attention to each stitch, I've been getting very consistent results today. I agree with Unicorn that it's probably too fiddly for a harness maker. But in my (comparably limited) experience, it's easier to get consistent stitching with thicker leathers. Ian's method seems like it will work really well for smaller goods like wallets.

[thefanninator]

Video is not a good example of a professional hand stitcher.

You use the awl as you stitch, therefore holding the awl in right hand and one needle, the other needle in the left hand.

He is also looping the thread over itself the wrong way, you loop forwards not backwards. You also pull up with the left hand and down with the right as you pull the threads tight.

You simply wouldn't have the time to stop, pre awl, then fiddle around with needles and no awl if you have to make a few bridles or harness each week.

I agree.

[unicornleather]

You'll see the difference in the stitching, stitching the saddler's way you'll get slanted stitching favoured by traditionalists such as this example

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now compare this to the methods used in the video above

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Can you see the slant on the stitches in the first one?

It's not just that It looks neat it's functional too as it locks the threads together better than in the second one, it's the standard and accepted way in the trade whether you are a saddler, harness maker, collar maker, leathergoods or footwear trades person.

[unicornleather]

Hi yes I do see what you mean. Although I would assume that the size thread and size of holes may also influence that.

Anyway the slant in the first photo is what I get with Nigel's method. Only thing that gives me grief is the back side (leading needle side) for some reason. He achieves this look on both sides.! When I can consistently do that, I will be very content.!

I am really enjoying this thread and the insights being provided by more experienced artisans. !

Thanx

Hello Sticks,

the technique will give you the slant no matter what thread, size of awl, hole or needle you use.

The first photo is a handmade belt I happened to photo, my belt to be precise, it was already a year old when I photo'd it so a little worn but good enough to show the slant of the thread.

Practice will give you a good stitch on the back as well as the front, try to get in to a rhythm and don't stop.

When you get going, you should be able to achieve one stitch every 5-7 seconds

Edited April 19, 2015 by unicornleather

[grmnsplx]

Hi guys,

right straight to the point.. Can anyone explain the difference between the two obviously different techniques showcased here.?? Nigel inserts the SECOND needle IN FRONT (LOWER PART OF THE HOLE) of the first thread, while Django inserts at the needle BEHIND (as farthest away from himself)..I seem to be able to achieve more slant using Nigel's approach , however the back side can be messy. Any insights pls. Practice is key but I guess one wants to be practising the correct way.

I see no difference in the methods. Left needle first, right needle goes over, then thread on the left is cast over the needle.

Edited April 19, 2015 by grmnsplx

[RStevenson]

When I stitch the way Ian Atkinson does in that video I do find that I am getting angled stitches on both sides. However the angle is not as great and I find that on one side my stitches are very high and sit at the top of the hole making a big gap under them.

[grmnsplx]

Sorry, my fault for not explaining correctly maybe. Nigel's method with the stitch marks leaning away from the stitcher is like this. Awl in right hand . Second (right) needle enters at the lower part (ie closest to the stitcher) of the hole while the other videos show the right needle entering on the highest (farthest away from stitcher) part of the hole. Also the Serge method seems to create a knot.? Am I right?

I'll have to experiment. I stitch the same way regardless of which way my holes go and I have't noticed a difference.

[Mikewhy]

Hi guys,

right straight to the point.. Can anyone explain the difference between the two obviously different techniques showcased here.?? Nigel inserts the SECOND needle IN FRONT (LOWER PART OF THE HOLE) of the first thread, while Django inserts at the needle BEHIND (as farthest away from himself)..I seem to be able to achieve more slant using Nigel's approach , however the back side can be messy. Any insights pls. Practice is key but I guess one wants to be practising the correct way.

Hello Sticks.

The idea is for the first needle to follow the awl as it is withdrawn. This is less important when both sides of the work are readily visible, as when held upright and centered in Nigel's stitching clamp or American-style ponies. With the Continental-style stitching clam shown here, the back side is hidden underneath and behind the work. Visibility to the back side is blocked, so finding the awl with the needle tip helps it hit the hole. Al Stohlman also writes in his leather sewing book about this technique. There, he discusses briefly the difficulty of sewing through the wool nap of lambskin. Ian does something similar -- I'm pretty sure it was he -- by inserting the second needle before completely pulling the first needle through.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mikewhy

[DavidL]

try ians method on thicker leathers (4-7 ounces), it should be identical look to non cast technique.

peter nitz, who is a luxury bag maker pre awls the holes in his videos.

[Mikewhy]

Many thnx for all the replies.

So basically it must be my awl technique that is lacking.! Is pre-awling the holes really frowned upon.?

Nah. Your stitching looks fine. The only way to see the slight, and I mean really tiny, misalignment in the hind stitches is to stare at them fixatingly as only we do here. I do take some issue with the awl technique, but perhaps not in the way you might think.

All this attention to forcing the threads apart is working a bit too well, in my opinion. In your pics, the awl gash on the front is huge, There's little to be done about it. That's just what the tools we use do. The end result is as you see it: gaps between each stitch. The long gash is at least a third to half the pitch distance, making the little bit of thread showing look chunky, to borrow a word.

I went along with everyone else, too, taking the ride on Nigel's words and advice. Long story short, my stitching looked like your photos: all gaps and stumpy looking threads. I hated it, gave up, and went back to stitching in an edge crease. That is not to say I didn't get anything from the exercise. It's just the opposite. The deep focus and re-think on fundamentals cleaned up my bad habits and, with help, I "discovered" Tiger thread.

As a suggestion only, just to see if it's moving you in the right direction, try stitching a row in a groove. Use 0.8mm Tiger, 7 or 8 stitches to the inch. Sew the row as Nigel teaches it, wrapping the front thread over to put the needle through the loop. The groove helps to fight the tendency to gap, even if the awl mark is a bit wide. What you should get is pleasingly proportioned stitches, each stitch touching the next, and the ribbon-like thread pinching nicely at the ends to make a pleasant eye shape. I would post a picture, but my gear and lighting aren't of the same class as yours. I think it's the eye shape more so than simply the induced slant that makes it say "hand sewn saddle stitch."