Flexible Saddle Tree

[rickybobby]

Have any of you heard of or used a "Fitsright" saddle tree. It has wood swell and wood cantle but rubber bars.

Long story, short. I have one and am not to sure about building on it.

Any suggestions or expieriences welcomed. (Good or bad)

Thanks,

Rick J.

[Blake]

Hi Rick

The rubber bars are very hard on a horses back from one perspective. From a builders perspective you will get a ground seat nightmare. If you use a metal strainer you have to be aware of the bar rock because the way you set the strainer will determine the rock and balance of the tree. If you get this done then be prepared at some point to do it again as a repair. The flex of the bars has a tendency to undo everything. If you use a leather ground seat then the straightness of the bars become an issue as the saddle ages and that too will eventually need repair. They are also on the narrow side and don't fit many horses.

Blake

[greg gomersall]

Ebay

You cannot put an all leather ground seat in this type of tree properly cause when you spike your bottom piece ahead to create some tension you will increase the rock of the tree and when you spike the seat area sideways to create tension you will actually pull the bars together. Greg

Edited September 12, 2008 by greg gomersall

[rickybobby]

Thanks for the information on doing the ground seat. I think I will stick to the tried and true saddle tree. I have had this one for some time and have not done anything with it. Maybe I will just use it for a book end, LOL!!

Is there any way to put a ground seat in it and be sure it will not fail??

Again, Thanks for the comments, you folks really have helped me on this and so many other projects!

[Blake]

Thanks for the information on doing the ground seat. I think I will stick to the tried and true saddle tree. I have had this one for some time and have not done anything with it. Maybe I will just use it for a book end, LOL!!

Is there any way to put a ground seat in it and be sure it will not fail??

Not Really. Some people have tried a flexible strainer thinking that it would move with the bars but it still comes loose. Maybe some duct tape?

Actually it is just a poor thought out design.

I was told by the manufacturer that the tree maker and designer from Ortho-Flex was the brains behind it but I don't know that to be fact.

In an independent test We did pressure mapping on this tree and it was off the scale regardless of what we tried to make it work.

Blake

[rickybobby]

Thanks for the information on doing the ground seat. I think I will stick to the tried and true saddle tree. I have had this one for some time and have not done anything with it. Maybe I will just use it for a book end, LOL!!

Is there any way to put a ground seat in it and be sure it will not fail??

Not Really. Some people have tried a flexible strainer thinking that it would move with the bars but it still comes loose. Maybe some duct tape?

Actually it is just a poor thought out design.

I was told by the manufacturer that the tree maker and designer from Ortho-Flex was the brains behind it but I don't know that to be fact.

In an independent test We did pressure mapping on this tree and it was off the scale regardless of what we tried to make it work.

Blake

Thanks for the information Blake,

I think I will just hang it on the wall as a conversation piece! and to remind me not to get talked into anything new and improved again !!

The man I spoke to was not Les Brown from Ortho Flex, but I did not ask if he was involved with the company a couple years ago when I ordered it. I do not remember the mans name.

When you did the pressure mapping did you have one of the "blankets" that display on a computer screen?

And what opinion do you have about the measuring device from Austrailia? It seems to be working for some saddle makers and tree makers here in the U.S.

[Blake]

Thanks for the information Blake,

I think I will just hang it on the wall as a conversation piece! and to remind me not to get talked into anything new and improved again !!

The man I spoke to was not Les Brown from Ortho Flex, but I did not ask if he was involved with the company a couple years ago when I ordered it. I do not remember the mans name.

When you did the pressure mapping did you have one of the "blankets" that display on a computer screen?

And what opinion do you have about the measuring device from Austrailia? It seems to be working for some saddle makers and tree makers here in the U.S.

It wasn't Len Brown, it was one of his people that did this .Evidently without Len's Knowledge. The company that makes the tree that you have is out of Gadsden Alabama.

The card system out of Aust. is still in its infancy but in my opinion will only get better. It deals with actual measurements and profiles and as the data base expands it will eventually and finally give some sanity to the fit issue. I have done my own measurements in a similar way for years but Dennis has taken this to a level that I hope becomes an industry standard. I know that a lot of the better tree makers will work with a saddle maker using this system but I'm not too sure about the production tree makers to date. Someone mentioned that Bowden showed an interest at the Sheridan show.Its not a quick fix gimmick but a tool to be used by someone with a little savvy. This quote comes to mind " When designing something fool proof, Never underestimate the ingenuity of a complete fool" (end of quote)

On the pressure mapping, we do use a computer system but we use it more for evaluation and research to improve upon design and construction of saddles in general. We found out early on that the competent Saddle Makers and Tree Makers already have a good grasp on what works. Especially the ones that have spent serious time in the saddle.

Blake

[daviD A Morris]

How close is the "fitsright" to the tree used in the "Steve Tucker" saddles. I've seen one of those trees and I've seen a finished "Steve Tucker" saddle but no idea how they put the ground seat in. My personal experience of "flexible" trees has been all bad, however the "Steve Tucker" saddles do satisfy a lot of customers. I'll bet he'd sell more of those in one week than I'd sell in 10 years. What am I missing? It seems the more I learn the less I know!

dam

[Blake]

http://www.steelesaddletreellc.com/V.html

Hi David

Try or cut and paste the link for Steele Saddle tree. Equifit is the brand name. I don't know that Tucker uses these trees but they are the same principle as far as ground seat.

Its actually a pretty well designed system from an engineering perspective.

Blake

[rickybobby]

http://www.steelesaddletreellc.com/V.html

Hi David

Try or cut and paste the link for Steele Saddle tree. Equifit is the brand name. I don't know that Tucker uses these trees but they are the same principle as far as ground seat.

Its actually a pretty well designed system from an engineering perspective.

Blake

Blake,

Have you used these trees? It seems like a good concept, the website is informative and nicely done. Have you used the blue fitting system they developed? I did not see any price list for anything on the website.

Rick J.

[Blake]

Hi Rick

I don't build on the glass or synthetic trees so I haven't used any for my own saddles. The blue fitting system works very well for their trees but does not translate to other makers. They primarily build for production companies and have a nice assortment of styles and fits. Eddie Steele is a friend of mine and they are very nice people to do business with.

Prices are very reasonable but you may have to call or Email for a current price list.

Eddie is from the same family that builds the Steele trail saddles .

Blake

[Priam1]

Wow, this is an interesting Post, since I was thinking about buying a Steele Tree for my next saddle.

By the way, I am a newbie working on my first saddle, and in reading this, I am surprised, since I also contacted Steele Saddle Tree company and wanted to purchase one of his trees, but I was told the model that I wanted to use to build was a tree that a manufacturer has exclusive rights on. So I askd him what tree were the Parellis using? And He indicated the tree that I was interested in. The Parellis have a very nice saddle and they are into these flexible bars. I did not talk to the owner, but the receptionist. According to her the trees are sent to Germany and that is where they are constructed. So. they are able to make it work somehow. But I sure would be interested in knowing how, because I already have my ground seat in, and I know exactly what you guys mean.

Let me ask another question: What would happen if you made a three quarter seat or half seat like on the Sam Stagg rigging. Would that give a little more wiggle room in terms of not needing so much rigidity to get a ground steat to stablize?

As an aside, I am from Wisconsin, and a lot of the Barrel Racing crowd in my area has gone and purchased these Flexible trees and really like them.

[Bar C Leather]

I'm only just building my first saddle but have been researching and preparing for a couple of years now. I was thinking about the fact that Parelli uses the flexible bars/tree. I know they are built in Germany and that they charge over $5000 for many of these saddles which from what I saw is a nice looking but non-tooled saddle.

I have heard a lot of buzz about the flexible trees in the barrel racing world too...but I know that they tried treeless saddles for a while and that seemed to have dissolved pretty quickly. I personally worry about the backs of my horses and am on my second (personal) hard-to-fit horse. I know how much an ill fitting saddle can affect a horse's performance as is common knowledge for all saddle makers. The main reason I was considering the flexible bars was because I currently have a two year old filly who's back currently calls for less rock than the 'average' tree but as she grows I'm guessing that will change.

Some concerns for me in researching these flexible bars:

1. The company claims the material holds tacks/nails BETTER than wood.... personally doesn't seem logical with the movement.

2. Says that the material can mold to an uneven back over time. So, then this would be a one horse saddle?

3. Claims that they have not experienced or heard of a single instance that the bars came loose from the fork or cantle. I suppose this could be true but they aren't covered with anything after attachment so it still seems quite possible.

I'd like to be able to offer the "latest" to clients but my primary concern is making sure I'm building the best saddle I possibly can. I want to be informed enough to tell my clients the whys and why nots for their options.

More information from saddlers who've tried these trees or even second hand knowledge would be awesome!!

More info on the Dennis Lane system would be great too!!!

Thanks,

Natalie

Bar C Leather

[David Genadek]

"Once upon a time,there was a fisherman who went fishing. As he pulled the fish out of his net he would take the good fish and put them in one barrel and the bad fish into another. We got back to the dock he took the barrel a bad fish and put a sign on it that said five dollars. A man from the fish market walked by and saw the whole barrel of fish for five dollars and thought he could make a killing so he bought the barrel of fish. He brought it back to the market in place to sign on it that said $10. Soon another man from the fish market saw the whole barrel of fish for $10 and quickly scooped it up. He then placed a sign on it that said $20. A few minutes later a restaurant owner came and saw the whole barrel of fish for just $20. How lucky he thought he was so he bought the barrel of fish and brought it back to his restaurant. He made a sign that said fish special and began selling plates of the fish. In no time his irate customerswere demanding their money back. He had to close the restaurant for the day. Furious he went back to the man that he bought the barrel of fish from and demanded a refund. The man looked at him and said look don't yell at me about it I bought them from that guy over there. So the restaurant owner went over to the other man and he said don't yell at me I bought them from the fisherman. So the restaurant owner went up to the fisherman and started giving him a piece of his mind. The fishermen just looked up and smiled and said; Son you didn't feed those fish the people did you? The restaurant owner replied; Well yes, and told him the story of his day. The fisherman looked at him and replied;" Son them were selling fish not eating fish."

It is important in the horse world to know the difference between selling fish and eating fish. This whole thread is about selling fish and the people mentioned are about selling fish,this is after all the American way.

David Genadek

[Bar C Leather]

"Once upon a time,there was a fisherman who went fishing. As he pulled the fish out of his net he would take the good fish and put them in one barrel and the bad fish into another. We got back to the dock he took the barrel a bad fish and put a sign on it that said five dollars. A man from the fish market walked by and saw the whole barrel of fish for five dollars and thought he could make a killing so he bought the barrel of fish. He brought it back to the market in place to sign on it that said $10. Soon another man from the fish market saw the whole barrel of fish for $10 and quickly scooped it up. He then placed a sign on it that said $20. A few minutes later a restaurant owner came and saw the whole barrel of fish for just $20. How lucky he thought he was so he bought the barrel of fish and brought it back to his restaurant. He made a sign that said fish special and began selling plates of the fish. In no time his irate customerswere demanding their money back. He had to close the restaurant for the day. Furious he went back to the man that he bought the barrel of fish from and demanded a refund. The man looked at him and said look don't yell at me about it I bought them from that guy over there. So the restaurant owner went over to the other man and he said don't yell at me I bought them from the fisherman. So the restaurant owner went up to the fisherman and started giving him a piece of his mind. The fishermen just looked up and smiled and said; Son you didn't feed those fish the people did you? The restaurant owner replied; Well yes, and told him the story of his day. The fisherman looked at him and replied;" Son them were selling fish not eating fish."

It is important in the horse world to know the difference between selling fish and eating fish. This whole thread is about selling fish and the people mentioned are about selling fish,this is after all the American way.

David Genadek

That has always kinda been my gut feeling about all these new-fanagled ideas...its been mostly my gut that has told me to stick with good ol' fashioned wood 'n bull.... but I'm always wanting to quench my thirst for the latest news and technology.

[David Genadek]

That has always kinda been my gut feeling about all these new-fanagled ideas...its been mostly my gut that has told me to stick with good ol' fashioned wood 'n bull.... but I'm always wanting to quench my thirst for the latest news and technology.

Embrace new technology when it is grounded in sound fundamentals. One good example of this is using alternative coverings rather than Rawhide on the tree. Resin technology has come so far in the last 20 years that using resin and fiberglass or carbon fiber would probably test out to be stronger than using the Rawhide. In the case of saddles that have flexible bars the reason they don't work is because they attached them to rigid fronts and cantles which prevent the bar from flexing in the direction that you would really like them to. Also consider what it takes to bend something or flex some thing if I want something to bend down in the middle you have to increase the pressure on the front and the back. So even though the middle is now touching the horse you have to consider that you are increasing the pressure on both ends to create the bend. When you look at the realities of these flex treed saddles it is so absurd from an educated standpoint that it is unbelievable that they can even exist in the market. They are the equivalent to selling refrigerators with heating coils in them but it just goes to show how extremely confused the horse owning public is. Honesty and integrity is a personal choice.

David Genadek

[Blake]

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation being thrown around about the flex trees. You have to completely think through the dynamics of the completed saddle and not just the tree alone.

The tree loses most of its flex from front to back when the strainer is applied and how it is applied will determine the rocker. The point that Genedek is trying to make does not actually apply unless it is to the tree only and then it will depend on the bar materials as to how much and what type of pressure you get when weight is applied. The intended benefit of the flex tree was/is to provide a fix to subtle variances in the twist & flare and provide a better bar to back contact ratio. The flex tree , Like any other tree has to fit decently to start with to actually provide any benefit. Steele does have an assortment of sizes and fits but you still need to know what you are looking for . The Flex tree is designed for high production and I would not recommend it for building your first saddle unless you enjoy frustration. It is not a trampoline and the flex is being taken way out of context .

Do yourselves a favor and order a conventional tree either hide or glass but make it a high quality clean, well made and designed tree. This will save you a lot of time and frustration when building which will over ride the money that you think you might save by purchasing an inexpensive one.

Kind Regards

Blake

[Bar C Leather]

It's really good to get some others' perspectives! I was still on the fence, leaning toward traditional. In fact I wasn't even sure about glass or kevlar coated but at least now I know they are a good option and I'll steer clear of the flexible bars and just focus on finding a good fit and a system for measuring.

I think I'll go ahead and order the Dennis Lane system. Even if a tree maker isn't familiar with the system, It can probably be used to draw the curves like you would with a flex curve.

Many Thanks!

Natalie

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Embrace new technology when it is grounded in sound fundamentals. One good example of this is using alternative coverings rather than Rawhide on the tree. Resin technology has come so far in the last 20 years that using resin and fiberglass or carbon fiber would probably test out to be stronger than using the Rawhide. In the case of saddles that have flexible bars the reason they don't work is because they attached them to rigid fronts and cantles which prevent the bar from flexing in the direction that you would really like them to. Also consider what it takes to bend something or flex some thing if I want something to bend down in the middle you have to increase the pressure on the front and the back. So even though the middle is now touching the horse you have to consider that you are increasing the pressure on both ends to create the bend. When you look at the realities of these flex treed saddles it is so absurd from an educated standpoint that it is unbelievable that they can even exist in the market. They are the equivalent to selling refrigerators with heating coils in them but it just goes to show how extremely confused the horse owning public is. Honesty and integrity is a personal choice.

David Genadek

Hi Dave, I am not going to say much here, 'cause every time I try to add my thoughts, there seems to be an expert out there that knows it all! Bottom line, I agree with you. I agree with your comments 100% spot on. I am now retired, but; in my real life I was an Advanced Seat System Engineer, working for the automotive world, and I too, embrace new technology that is founded in sound fundamentals. I am always looking for a better way, but; I make sure I don't stray too far from the "old fashioned way". It always seems to work best for me and my customers.

Bondo Bob

[Blake]

It's really good to get some others' perspectives! I was still on the fence, leaning toward traditional. In fact I wasn't even sure about glass or kevlar coated but at least now I know they are a good option and I'll steer clear of the flexible bars and just focus on finding a good fit and a system for measuring.

I think I'll go ahead and order the Dennis Lane system. Even if a tree maker isn't familiar with the system, It can probably be used to draw the curves like you would with a flex curve.

Many Thanks!

Natalie

Good Morning Natalie

Dennis Lanes system is a good decision. You might also consider that there are a couple of excellent tree makers on this forum that understand and can use that system to your benefit. Go with either the hide or glass . The maker of the Glass trees and The makers of the Hide trees on this forum have done their homework and I along with many other saddle makers can vouch for their quality. Just because a tree is advertised with a fancy coating doesn't necessarily mean that it is of a good design. Yes there are gimmicks used there too and a lot of the time you get poor bar design and performance because you were dazzled by the hype and BS.

You just need to make your choice and get that first tree ordered so that you can concentrate on getting your shop and tools in order so that you can get it built.

When you start building, you will have a gazillion more questions.

There is not a law in place (yet) that says you have to keep that first saddle so you can always sell it and build another since you will be one saddle smarter.

You have some top saddle makers on this forum too and will more than likely give you all the help they can with your questions once they see that you are serious and standing at your bench.

I would suggest that you stick with the seasoned makers of trees and saddles with your questions. People that market their skills and products on a large scale don't necessarily make the best product decisions when they are selling something, only what can turn a fast profit and has appeal because of a name attached. There is a world of difference between having a saddle with a name on it or having a saddle built by the person whose name is on it.

Kind Regards

Blake

[Bar C Leather]

Good Morning Natalie

Dennis Lanes system is a good decision. You might also consider that there are a couple of excellent tree makers on this forum that understand and can use that system to your benefit. Go with either the hide or glass . The maker of the Glass trees and The makers of the Hide trees on this forum have done their homework and I along with many other saddle makers can vouch for their quality. Just because a tree is advertised with a fancy coating doesn't necessarily mean that it is of a good design. Yes there are gimmicks used there too and a lot of the time you get poor bar design and performance because you were dazzled by the hype and BS.

You just need to make your choice and get that first tree ordered so that you can concentrate on getting your shop and tools in order so that you can get it built.

When you start building, you will have a gazillion more questions.

There is not a law in place (yet) that says you have to keep that first saddle so you can always sell it and build another since you will be one saddle smarter.

You have some top saddle makers on this forum too and will more than likely give you all the help they can with your questions once they see that you are serious and standing at your bench.

I would suggest that you stick with the seasoned makers of trees and saddles with your questions. People that market their skills and products on a large scale don't necessarily make the best product decisions when they are selling something, only what can turn a fast profit and has appeal because of a name attached. There is a world of difference between having a saddle with a name on it or having a saddle built by the person whose name is on it.

Kind Regards

Blake

It's really nice to be here among experienced makers since my current status doesn't allow me to attend a saddle making school (and I'm not sure I could make my mind up where to go if I was able!) I think it's almost better to get feedback from many experienced makers. I already use 4 different sources as far as literature goes and I seem to be just picking what I feel works best for me and the saddle I'm making for this first saddle.

I actually have ordered my first and second trees. They are both from Bowden and one was ordered two years ago and the second just last month. I am in the middle of construction of saddle number one and have posted some of my progress and I'd love if you all could give me any feedback, good bad or otherwise!!

http://leatherworker...showtopic=19740

The main reason I was considering other options was that I have a 2 year old filly and the tree I ordered for her seems to have too much rock and the bars extend what seems to be too far behind the cantle for her short, cutting horse back. I know there are "rules" and that the weight distribution is important. Can anyone tell me what they feel is a good ratio of bars behind the cantle... I know it probably has to correlate with seat length. I'm sure there is a good chance that whatever I find to fit her back now, she'll grow out of, but we're getting to a point that her training needs to step up a notch and I want to be sure that her saddle fits so we don't run into any problems.

Many Thanks!

Natalie

P.S.... No, I didn't start the first saddle when I ordered the tree two years ago . Started it in August and working as time allows and as I aquire/build the tools I need.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Bar C Leather

[David Genadek]

Natalia,

Tomorrow night at 7 PM Central standard Time I'm going to be giving my new webinar a test run. You would be welcome to join I have attached instructions for how to join. The webinar will answer your questions about the bar length and you will also see film showing you why what these people are claiming about these flexible bared saddles is nothing short of a lie. You can then judge for yourself the depth of my understanding of these systems.

David Genadek

webinarflyeropt.pdf

webinarflyeropt.pdf

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I know there are “rules”

Natalie, there really aren’t scientifically set “rules”. A lot of what we have read as “rules” regarding saddle fit, even when stated by people with Dr. in front of their name, are, in our opinion, incorrect (a polite way of saying hogwash), especially when extrapolated between English and Western saddles. For now, Rule #1 “don’t dig in anywhere” and Rule #2 “distribute the pressure over as much surface area as possible without breaking Rule #1” are the only rules that most people would agree on. That takes having a good bar design. The rest are theories and opinions, some backed by many years of experience (which means something), some “new and improved” (yet to be extensively field tested), and some claiming to be based on science. The scientific research behind saddle fit is still in its infancy. There is very little known from actual research. Over the next 5 to 10 years we will learn a lot as the technology improves and we can find out for sure what is happening under that saddle.

The debate between fiberglass and rawhide will probably never end. There are some threads from a couple years ago discussing the issue. The technology behind hide hasn’t changed, and almost anyone can tell how thick a hide is, its condition and how well it is put on just by looking. The technology behind fiberglass has changed a lot and I doubt a layperson can tell just by looking what type of technique and materials have been used on a tree. Some makers are using the newer methods. A lot of trees sold still use the materials that originally gave fiberglass a bad name as a tree covering. If you want to order fiberglass, we would recommend that you learn a bit about the different techniques and ask some questions of the tree maker first. (The same goes for type of rawhide, what is used to stitch it with, protectants used on it, etc.)

[Bar C Leather]

Natalie, there really aren't scientifically set "rules". A lot of what we have read as "rules" regarding saddle fit, even when stated by people with Dr. in front of their name, are, in our opinion, incorrect (a polite way of saying hogwash), especially when extrapolated between English and Western saddles. For now, Rule #1 "don't dig in anywhere" and Rule #2 "distribute the pressure over as much surface area as possible without breaking Rule #1" are the only rules that most people would agree on. That takes having a good bar design. The rest are theories and opinions, some backed by many years of experience (which means something), some "new and improved" (yet to be extensively field tested), and some claiming to be based on science. The scientific research behind saddle fit is still in its infancy. There is very little known from actual research. Over the next 5 to 10 years we will learn a lot as the technology improves and we can find out for sure what is happening under that saddle.

The debate between fiberglass and rawhide will probably never end. There are some threads from a couple years ago discussing the issue. The technology behind hide hasn't changed, and almost anyone can tell how thick a hide is, its condition and how well it is put on just by looking. The technology behind fiberglass has changed a lot and I doubt a layperson can tell just by looking what type of technique and materials have been used on a tree. Some makers are using the newer methods. A lot of trees sold still use the materials that originally gave fiberglass a bad name as a tree covering. If you want to order fiberglass, we would recommend that you learn a bit about the different techniques and ask some questions of the tree maker first. (The same goes for type of rawhide, what is used to stitch it with, protectants used on it, etc.)

I had been thinking a lot about the fiberglass since this thread. I do know that I've peeked under some saddles and noticed that some fiberglass coatings seem to deteriorate and begin to crumble in certain places. I do like the idea of rawhide because of its endurance. I've noticed what looks to be a clear rubbery sealant used over the stitching on the two trees I have ordered. Could you tell me more about protectants (I'm guessing some may be detrimental to the rawhide?), or is there somewhere I can read more about it?

Thanks,

Natalie Carroll