Using Up The Pieces

[Tracym]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just looks like a basic pineapple knot to me, but with four passes. I'll have to try it - but it looks to me like the passes I've done following the main knot on the left of that strand, crossing under Xs at top and bottom. I'll try it.

[TXAG]

The books I have reference a whole hoard of different pineapple knots, so I do not know which one the "basic" one would be...they are all different and they all look different when completed.

Edited December 19, 2013 by TXAG

[Tracym]

I've been trying to figure out the "logic" behind the critters, instead of just following a pattern. I'm going to give this one a try. Since he said it is 4 pass, I'm pretty sure from looking at the photo it is 5 part. My guess is 7 bight. I'll see if I can do it (oops thought 4 part, changed it to I think 5 part)

Edited December 19, 2013 by Tracym

[TXAG]

Good luck...if you figure it out, please post it...

[Tracym]

ok, a 7 x 6 turkshead would give me two light colored "stripes" going across, so I'm going to guess I need 8 parts? Still working...

[Tracym]

Ok, I think I know what it is. Once the pattern is correct in 2 passes, you just then need to go on adding 2 more parallel passes, each "above" the last one. My problem is keeping the dang thing loose enough to allow that much room - I bet this is one where pins on the mandrel might be helpful. I believe it is a 9 part 8 bight turkshead. What I have now looks the same, but without the extra passes. What I did was the following:

Using Gail Hought’s basic turkshead – starts off as 4 bight, then an expansion pass (creating “railroad tracks” then splitting them on the parallel, creates a “standard” 7 part 6 bight turkshead.

Then, I just did one more expansion pass exactly the same way – railroad tracks next to the standing string, splitting on parallel – this yielded a 9 part 8 bight turkshead.

Then, I just did a standard herringbone/pineapple interweave – follow the standing end on the right of the standing end, going under the X at top and bottom of the knot. Split any parallels you come across crosswise. When you are splitting the parallels, do the same thing to the original strings as the string you are following, do the opposite to the new string.

Does this sound right folks? And any tricks for keeping this knot loose enough to allow for 4 passes?

Edited December 19, 2013 by Tracym

[TXAG]

You could do what I did...start it on a larger mandrel, then transfer it to a smaller diameter one...that should give you more room to work while keeping everything straight...

4 bight? How many leads/parts? You're starting to sound like gail.

So can I just start with a 7L x 6B knot then? I'm not sure what you mean by an "expansion pass". I'll try to find a 9L x 9B (I think that's what you mean) in Tom Hall's book and start with that.

I'm so confused...none of this makes any sense to me at all. Again, can you please let me know what a "standard" herringbone/pineapple weave is? There seem to be about a million different ones or so...

When you are splitting the parallels, do the same thing to the original strings as the string you are following, do the opposite to the new string.

I do not understand this. I guess I am just too stupid to be able to tie this stuff. Pretty strongly considering giving up on this stuff right about now. Also, "stuff" was not the first word to come to mind, but this is a family forum and I am trying to keep it family friendly.

Edited December 19, 2013 by TXAG

[bucksnort]

I may be wrong here, but it appears to me your way overthinking this. All pineapple knots are tied on a turkshead base. For even # bights you begin with a 2 bight & however many passes you decide to make it the right length. Every time you add a full pass to the base knot, it adds 2 bights,so 2,4,6 & so on. More bights add more to the diameter of the knot more parts add to the length. The pineapple adds passes without adding bights to fill in without adding bights, For an odd # of bights, you start with a 3 bight turkshead & every pass adds 2 bights, 3,5,7 ect. he books & stuff on the net like to give a lot of different names to what is pretty much the same thing. A pineapple is a pineapple, just depends on the # of parts & bights. Hope this helps. Buck

[Tracym]

Well it would help if I could type - I'm so sorry, I corrected my post above - it is 9 part 8 bight turkshead.

[TXAG]

Thanks, tracym...I did find a tutorial for a 9L x 8B, so am going to try that later after I step away from it for a while.

Bucksnort -- if I were looking at this from your perspective (experience), what you said would probably make a lot more sense. I guess I just don't know enough yet to "get it".

Like tracym, I am starting to figure out the patterns as far as when to split parallels, how to go under x's (and how many)...but for the life of me, I cannot figure out this knot.

[Tracym]

What I've seen as the basic interweave for the pineapple knot is - if you are holding the knot so the mandrel is sideways - the standing string is sticking out to your left. Your new string enters the knot just below the standing string, and follows the standing string up (to the right) o1 u1 however many times until you reach the top and go under the X, staying inside the original knot. Then the same down. Just continue that, but whenever you find two that are a pair (parallel) the original and new string, you split them. This is what I think Bucksnort is talking about - the interweave is basically the same no matter the size of the knot. The interweave will have 2 less parts than the original knot.

I think I would have had to start on a really large mandrel, or use narrower lace, as 4 passes needs a LOT of room.

[Tracym]

In the Gail Haught's turkshead (I think you have that one), where she ends up showing the 7 x 6 Turkshead, it is a complete 6 bight knot at figure 15. Figures 16 onward are an expansion pass. You can see the parallels, and how on an expansion pass, they are split in the same direction as themselves. So the 5 x 4 becomes a 7 x 6. If you simply repeat steps 15 onwards a second time then, it becomes 9 x 7. If you wanted it bigger, you'd just keep going.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Tracym

[TXAG]

In the Gail Haught's turkshead (I think you have that one), where she ends up showing the 7 x 6 Turkshead, it is a complete 6 bight knot at figure 15. Figures 16 onward are an expansion pass. You can see the parallels, and how on an expansion pass, they are split in the same direction as themselves. So the 5 x 4 becomes a 7 x 6. If you simply repeat steps 15 onwards a second time then, it becomes 9 x 7. If you wanted it bigger, you'd just keep going.

Ok, I will look at this when I get home this afternoon...thanks...

[Tracym]

Gah, I can't get the numbers right to save my life today - again I am SO sorry. It's a complete FOUR bight knot at figure 15. Six bight when complete. You're welcome. The way those expansion passes work, it seems, you can just keep repeating that to make as big of a "square" turkshead as you want (square meaning the number of bights and parts are only 1 apart).

Oh, and the two kinds of pineapple knots that I noticed (there could be more) is the one used in the knot you like, and what I'm talking about - the 2nd (and subsequent) passes stay inside the main knot, so are smaller than the main knot - 2 fewer parts - and go under the "X" at both ends of the knot. A different type continues out the top side of the knot, and is the exact same size as the original knot - in that case, you'd go under the "X" at the bottom, but not at the top (you'd go outside the main knot instead).

[TXAG]

My favorite one is like the heel knot...it cinches down on both ends to help keep everything contained...

[TXAG]

I've completed the 9L x 8B w/pineapple interweave, so it looks the same as the knot, but without the extra passes to double everything. Not sure how to continue...

[TXAG]

Ok, from this post in another thread...

http://leatherworker...75

"Bud Brewer gave us these Os & Us:

I don?t know anything about types, an I definitely don?t know anything about the math of these things. Long ago I sat down an figured out the way the passes go under an wrote it down. Lost it an so, redid it again. I think it is correct. Maybe this will help with the knots

PINEAPPLES

2 pass ? first pass under 2 at the top, under 2 at the bottom. There after, under 3 both top and bottom. (basic pineapple)

3 pass ? first pass under 2 at top, under 4 at bottom. There after under 3 at top and under 5 at bottom

4 pass ? first pass under 2 at top, under 6 at bottom. There after under 3 at top and under 7 at bottom

5 pass ? first pass under 2 at top, under 8 at bottom. There after under 3 at top and under 9 at bottom

6 pass ? first pass under 2 at top, under 10 at bottom. There after under 3 at top and under 11 at bottom"

Can someone please explain this info from the late Bud Brewer? Was he referring to Type 3 pineapple knots?

[TXAG]

And...I am pretty sure it is a 9L x 8B base, but hell if I can get the third and fourth passes correct.

[Tracym]

I believe that is the right knot, I'm glad you got that. I think you would just add a 3rd (and then 4th) pass the same as you would the 2nd pass, following the 2nd pass around, going over and under more strings as necessary. The problem is - using black and tan to make the pattern that he did - you would have to do 2 passes of black, then 2 passes of tan. Which for me anyway, makes it harder to follow what I'm doing doing 2 passes of the same color. So main knot black, pineapple interweave pass black, 3rd pass tan, 4th pass tan. Perhaps practice using 4 different colors so you can see what you're doing, make notes, and then do it with the colors as he did.

[TXAG]

Yeah...problem is, I don't know how to start the third and fourth passes...that's what I've been trying to figure out. First two, no problem. Don't know how to begin the third pass (where and how many U/O to begin...)

[Tracym]

OK, someone help out here if possible Now I'm thinking the base knot is black, 2nd pass is tan. Maybe working down then inside the knot - 3rd pass tan and 4th pass black? Here's a youtube of doing a 3rd pass

[TXAG]

Thanks...got that jotted down in my notebook...

Still need to try to figure out that fourth pass...I'm going to try to extrapolate it from the other ones, but it would be helpful if someone else could confirm where/how to start out on the fourth pass...

[Tracym]

You still have me guessing, but probably underneath the 3rd pass, along the standing end from the original knot. Doing the same as the 3rd pass, just going over/under 1 more each time.

[TXAG]

That's sort of what I'm thinking too...going to try the fourth pass in a little while.

[Tracym]

Good luck