Belt End Length

[asallwey]

I'm a newbe and have just dyed and finished a couple of belts (1.5" & 1.75"). This site has been extreeemely helpful! Thank you all!

Now I would like to pass on something I found out about belt end length. I've seen belt end recommendations that say to add 1" - 3", so I chose 2 different lengths for my 6 belts. When I tried my finished belts on, the fit was on the mark, but the belt end sometimes stuck out a bit. I tend to wear jeans, regular, work, or carpenter's style.

So I measured from the pant's zipper edge to the first belt loop and I found they varied with manufacturer. The shortest is 3", and the longest was 4.75" (just my pants, didn't go to a store). So even with a loop on the belt, a short belt end that doesn't reach the first pant loop may/will poke out a bit if the belt is stiff (like mine are).

So my suggestion is, if possible, test fit the belt before cutting to insure it will reach the first pant loop. I know, this doesn't work too well for those of you who sell finished belts, but if you're making it for yourself ... . O yea, not all jean belt loops take 1.75" belts.

Alex

[oaksidesaddlery]

The technically correct and traditional end length is 2 1/2 times the width of the belt.

This is from the last hole to the point of the belt. In fact to keep traditional, belts should have 5 holes space the width of the belt apart. The middle hole being the desired length and the two either side for show. There should also always be an odd number of holes.

If the belt is very narrow then maybe punch 7 holes to ensure you have enough spare length.

Si

[Dwight]

The technically correct and traditional end length is 2 1/2 times the width of the belt.

This is from the last hole to the point of the belt. In fact to keep traditional, belts should have 5 holes space the width of the belt apart. The middle hole being the desired length and the two either side for show. There should also always be an odd number of holes.

If the belt is very narrow then maybe punch 7 holes to ensure you have enough spare length.

Si

I'm really not sure where you came up with this information, . . . but it is just totally incorrect, . . . period.

The tongue end of the belt needs to be long enough to go out through the keeper with an extra 1 inch or so, . . . when the buckle is in the first hole.

Spacing them the width of the belt is not only silly, . . . but totally defeats the purpose if you have a belt that is wider than 1 inch.

And 5 holes or 7 holes is only a function of how the maker wants to do it, . . . there is no "standard formula", . . . at least not on the west side of the Atlantic.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Chief31794]

I'm really not sure where you came up with this information, . . . but it is just totally incorrect, . . . period.

The tongue end of the belt needs to be long enough to go out through the keeper with an extra 1 inch or so, . . . when the buckle is in the first hole.

Spacing them the width of the belt is not only silly, . . . but totally defeats the purpose if you have a belt that is wider than 1 inch.

And 5 holes or 7 holes is only a function of how the maker wants to do it, . . . there is no "standard formula", . . . at least not on the west side of the Atlantic.

May God bless,

Dwight

X2, the only thing I do a little different is that I always add the length needed so that when the belt is in the first hole the tip goes through the keeper and covers the chicago screws it comes to a little over an inch so still in line with Dwight's comments. I don't like the chicago screws showing while the belt is being worn.

Chief

[Fowlingpiece]

I am on the west side of the Atlantic and agree with Oakside : )

What he is relaying is the old traditional accepted practice of the professional saddler.

[Chief31794]

I am on the west side of the Atlantic and agree with Oakside : )

What he is relaying is the old traditional accepted practice of the professional saddler.

That's very interesting, are these professional saddler practices published? I'd like to get a copy and see if there is something else I'm missing.

Chief

[Dwight]

I am on the west side of the Atlantic and agree with Oakside : )

What he is relaying is the old traditional accepted practice of the professional saddler.

So you are telling me that to conform to the accepted practice of a professional saddler, . . . I need to space 5 holes, 2 inches apart, on my 2 inch wide belts I make for my customers, . . . in order to conform to "belts should have 5 holes space the width of the belt apart."

Some stuffed shirt know-it-all may have written down in some dusty old book a hundred or two years ago that this is the "accepted practice", . . . but it just does not make any sense at all. And you can relay that to him for me.

My customer's needs, . . . desires, . . . comfort, . . . likes, . . . and dislikes are what drive my production, . . . and the "real" production of the whole profitable trade enterprise. Suggesting that everyone conform to some silly rule like that is beyond silly, . . .

May God bless,

Dwight

[Fowlingpiece]

I am not telling you to do anything really. I am just agreeing with the other fellow that those types of things were passed from master to apprentice in many professional shops TRADITIONALLY, in the past, long ago and continued into the present with some. I know that more than one shop could in the 1950's trace these types of passed down teachings at least as far back as the mid 19h century.

I dont think he required you or anyone to conform and I am certainly not.

My post was simply to agree that those practices were taught TRADITIONALLY and not just "totally incorrect...period". Are there variations? Sure. Methods varied then as now with different masters to achieve the same end.

Cabin fever??

[johnv474]

I would encourage appreciating the value in traditions we hold and observe, while being willing to challenge the assumptions they rest upon. There was reasoning behind many of them, while others are mere historical flukes. However, I still say "Bless you" or "Gesundheit" when someone sneezes, still shake with the right hand, still use linen thread for traditoonal-type leatherwork, still celebrate Pagan holidays rebranded as something else, and still wear shirt and tie to business meetings and funerals If any tradition is silly, the wearing of neckties is.That said, all traditions started somewhere, and evolve over time. It is not ridiculous to have holes 1" apart in a 2" wide belt, but my (purchased) tool belt has holes 2" apart. Do what you like, with an eye to tradition if it matters to you. In matters of taste, there is no disputing--though the snobs of the world will, anyway.This is directed at noone in particular: I just felt like waxing philosophocal for no reason.

[oaksidesaddlery]

Oops! I think I started something there!

Lets try and answer and explain some of these points.

My reply is the traditional way of making straps (a belt is a strap). The traditional way is exactly as I said. It is definitely not wrong Dwight.

Let me explain. Many, many, years ago the local leather worker/saddler/harness maker, gets an order for a leather belt. He goes to the local blacksmith and asks for a buckle two inches wide. Some days later the 2 inch buckle arrives. Quality control not being the same then as it is now, the saddler doesn't know how wide it really is because practical rulers haven't been invented yet! So he marks his bridle butt leather the width that will fit in the buckle and cuts his belt strap, squares the end, makes his loops with a bit of the off-cut and stitches the buckle in to place. Using the customers' old belt the saddler knows how long to make the new belt and marks what will become the middle hole. As he has no ruler or divider he picks up the off-cut and uses the width of the off-cut to mark some holes before and after the first mark (5 because it looks right) at the point he uses the width of the off-cut two and a half times (again because it looks right) and cuts his point.

This method is what I use whether I am making a belt, dog collar, or a bridle. That's not to say that everybody has to do it, it is just an example of the traditional method. Try it you might find that you like it.

That is the beauty of hand made – you can make what you like!

Hopefully that makes sense.

Chief, I trained for 5 years in saddlery and harness making, hardly anything was written down it was all practical. There are a couple of good books around, check out 'saddlery and harness making by Paul Hasluck' it is old, originally written early 1900's difficult to understand for a novice (and for a professional!) It gives no measurements what-so-ever and is all “take a piece of leather and cut it to the desired length”. An easier series of books are by Robert H Steinke. He covers hand stitching, tools, and some projects, makes for a good read.

Si

If you want to check out my stuff then visit oaksidesaddlery.co.uk and oaksidebelts.co.uk

[asallwey]

Gee, I didn't think my post would stir up such emotions!

All I was saying in my original post, was that the type of buckle used may be reason to change the belt end length. I realize that most of the posts talk about standard belt buckles, here I'm talking about decorative buckles.

I just measured several standard buckles and they seem to be about 1.5" from the bar held in the belt to the metal arm that goes in the belt hole (for 1.5" & 1.75" belts). (Sorry, I don't know the correct terms for buckle parts.) With this type of buckle the guidelines seem to apply pretty good.

I also measured 6 large, decorative buckles (ebay search for brass buckles if you want to see an example of what I mean). Using the measurement description above, the distance from the back bar to the peg/pin that goes into the belt, varied from 2" to 4.5".

Additionally, the first left side loop on 5 pairs of jeans varied from about 3.25" to 4.5".

In my opinion, I like to have a belt that goes through the belt loop, and the first loop on the pant. So for a decorative buckle, it may best to know the approximate dimension of the buckle that is going to be used so the belt end length can be made long enough. Actually this type of buckle would also change belt length.

Alex

[Studio-N]

when I fit a belt for someone, we measure to the middle hole (of 5). I then cut 6" from the middle hole. So in theory, that's 4" from the first hole.

So far, that has never been short of going thru anyone's belt loop. Although we do get customers that really want it long past the belt loop.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Studio-N

[JLSleather]

All I was saying in my original post, was that the type of buckle used may be reason to change the belt end length. I... also measured 6 large, decorative buckles (ebay search for brass buckles if you want to see an example of what I mean).

... may best to know the approximate dimension of the buckle that is going to be used so the belt end length can be made long enough. Actually this type of buckle would also change belt length.

Alex

I take it you're talking about what some around here would refer to as "trophy" buckles. And you're right, it matters - a trophy buckle can change the length of the belt by several inches. Somewhere along 100 years ago (ish) I learned making belts with these type buckles this way ...

Mark a fold line, add buckle length. From the "hook" on the buckle, measure the size to the middle hole. With the hook in the middle hole, cut the belt off (tip) 4" past the END of the buckle. So, if your buckle is 3", then the tip would be about 7" from the center hole. With a buckle half that long (1 1/2") then your tip would be 5.5" beyond the center hole.

Even with this "generalized" approach, I've had boys ask for a longer tip (beyond what I thought was "right" for the belt). But, that's rather the point of 'custom', NO?

[asallwey]

JLSleather,

Yes!! Finally someone who has faced this! I was just trying to point it out because I did not see any references to belts for these large buckles.

Alex

[JLSleather]

That's strange, a bit. Must be a BUNCH of fellas using the same type of buckles all the time - not trophy buckles. Anybody who makes belts knows that a longer buckle makes the belt longer, so I never did "get" why they don't realize the "short" end is different too. Then, I don't get those people who tell customers (or potential customers) to measure an old belt "from the fold". Unless you're using the same buckle, that aint gonna 'git' it.

I "usually" use 5 holes, spaced 3/4" apart. Exceptions - where the buckle tongue is large, requiring a large hole, that might not be so good for the strength or the look of the belt, in which case I have done 1" apart. On narrow straps with small buckles, 1/2" might do (example, saddle bag strap, small collars, or portfolio "belt").

And I just checked -- BOTH of those old books describe this alteration to suit trophy buckles, so it's hardly a new issue.

Belts Galore -- p2

Lucky 8 Belt -- p3

Both of these books were out by the 1950's, and it's one of the first "lessons" in both books.

You know, for what it's worth ...

[asallwey]

Well I'm glad I brought the topic up. And I'm glad you happened across it.

Alex

[Brazos Jack]

Oh how I love topics like this one. It reminds me of my humble beginnings back in the mid 1900s and some of the hot conversations of how this and that can't work because nobody does it that way. Well, that don't hold water because this cowboy was doing that way and it worked! What my experience in this trade has taught me is that if it works it's an acceptable method. Whether it's belts, boots, holsters, or cat muzzles; if it works - go for it! As for traditions, well I'm about as UNtraditional as a guy can get and is why at any gathering or convention I'm the one you see in the corner talking to a lamp. Reason is simple; most folks like to belong to a click that follows one or another way or method so they have others to converse with about the topic. (Lamps by the way are good listeners.) My point in all this is this - you are ALL right! Why? Because it works. And Alex reminds me of how I learned things in this trade and made it as far as I have - TEST FIRST - CUT LAST! You go Alex. Hot conversations like this one keep ideas flowing and going and is what makes the world go round. I love it! As for the way I make a belt, well, if it holds my pants up - it's a good one! God Bless America and the Republic of Texas! Jim

[olemanstrong]

Mark Twain had an interesting quote about traditions. He said that the less justification you had for older traditions, the harder the died.

I really enjoyed all of these comments.

olemanstrong

[Northmount]

All great comments.

For those that use 2" straps with 2" spacing, now I see why so many butt cracks are visible, and why so many dogs squeeze out of their collars.

Tom