Exotic Ethics?

[JRedding]

Washroad, not that you need to hear one more endangered species story, it sounds like you already know plenty but heres the one they do in our area. I live about ten minutes from the Colorado river in Utah and there are some trashfish in the river the humpback chub, the squawfish, and one other I can't remember, they got them declared endangered so now we grow them in cement ponds just outside of town. It's a big spawning type facility, with several biologists employed there full time, we're not doing anything with the fish, just growing them in cement ponds so we know there's still one left. This has went on for a decade or more. The real kicker we're told is in Washington the state fish and game pays the kids a bounty to jerk them out of the river and dispose of them because they're a trash fish that's destroying their fisherie up there. But just in case they ever dispose of the last one we have some in Utah in the cement pond.

[TwinOaks]

hmmm..

It's ethically responsible to use ALL parts of an animal taken for human use...

We wear leather and furs, eat the meat, and make tools or musical instruments out of the bones....

If we don't use it immediately, it rots and or has to be buried, wait..the dinosaurs were buried...

There doesn't seem to be a time limit imposed by anyone for this....

Driving my 10 MPG pickup truck is recycling!!!!!

[MADMAX22]

HMMMM well I may as well throw my two pennies in here while Im looking around.

My parents raised horses and many other animals when I was a kid. Infact we raised all our own poultry including chickens/geese/pheasent/duck/turkeys (up to 60lbs lol), we also raised a few pigs, a cow a year roughly, and all this was a food source for some time for our family.

We also had a pet shop for 15 years, not a meth head drug haven petshop but a respectable one that didnt mill out puppies/cats and the such and we carried alot of exotic animals.

I worked at a pet breeder/wholesaler for 3 years as well.

Anyways what Im getting at here is that with all my past experiences Ive raised and butchered just about all the normal domestic animals there is to eat and I dont see a problem with it. Seeing things like fish, snakes, other small animals that granted have some intelligence but nothing to even border a dog or cat. I wouldnt mind using any of these animals hides as long as the whole animal went to use and we just didnt throw the rest of it away. THis goes for any type of snake, reptile, croc, and the such.

NOW when it comes to elephants I have a little but of a moral dilema. I have scene these animals, I have not worked with them but done some research a long time ago and I have scene alot of different sides of them. They are in my mind too intelligent of an animal to treat like we do like locking them up in zoo's which I really hate for the larger animals. Every elephant I have scene locked up like that has shown signs of seriouse stress that you would see in a person if locked up like that. You wonder why the guys go crazy and burst out of carnivals and start tramping people, heck I would too if you beat me down and made me do stupid tricks all day. All this after being seperated from your family which elephants actually have a significant awareness of.

Anyways if however the animal dies I dont see any reason for it to be wasted. So if I could get a source that provided elephant from a animal that died naturally or as stated was from a culling to maintain the area to support the animals that are left then that would be ok IMHO.

Now this has nothing to do with the dumbo thing or anything else. Heck I use to have pet spiders and scorpions and Ill still squich the little bastards every chance I get lol.

[cybertracy]

I believe one of the problems with using 'exotic' furs, even if gained legally and humanely, is that it creates an easier market for poachers to sneak in their illegally obtained goods. If a certain skin/hide is completely banned for sale/use then it is easier for customs & officials to spot the sale of poached goods. My grandfather worked in several countries trying to find a solution to both problems (protection of endangered animals and the legal market for culled/farmed exotic goods) and happened upon a park where 2 game wardens (one a single father of 6 children) were murdered in Africa for a single pair of juvenile elephant tusks. Heartbreak about the elephant, but the tragedy of the warden's deaths still ripples in the region. This happened about 1 year after a lift on a ban of ivory (I forget what country) was passed and they tracked the tusks gotten from this incident to that country.

[Hammerhead]

yaknow the gators under my house kill each other and i'm not allowed to scoop them out and use them

here's a video i made filmed from my front porch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpcXtrNXXx4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpcXtrNXXx4' rel="external nofollow">

[DCKNIVES]

Cool video Hammerhead, it's a shame we can't legally hunt them without the lottery.That little one you got would have been perfect sheath size.Dave

[Sheilajeanne]

The lady that runs PETA is a certifiable nutcase. When she dies, I believe she has it in her will that her friends will hold a BBQ in her memory, and she will be the meat course. She also wants her skin to be tanned and made into something useful...  She thinks all domestic animals should be allowed to run free, where nature would determine who lives and who dies. How she has managed to keep her agenda from her celebrity supporters, I have no idea, but many of them would freak out if they found out she wants their beloved lapdogs turned loose to either eat other animals, or starve to death.

The downside of trying to protect a species is how the protection sometimes backfires. Horse lovers have succeeded in getting the slaughter of horses banned in the U.S.A. That means the unwanted, elderly and infirm are now shipped long distances to meet their deaths in Mexico or Canada, or even shipped overseas. Many are injured or even die during shipping. Horses are also being abandoned and left to starve rather than being shipped. 

If there's a law to protect an animal, someone will find a way to get around it. This article about CITES and the illegal ivory trade makes very interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade  The corruption of the countries involved in the ivory trade made it easy for them to get around the rules, as they had already stockpiled huge hoards of ivory. When the trading of ivory to foreign countries was banned by CITES, several countries strongly opposed the ban, claiming they needed money from the sale of ivory to fund conservation work. Investigations into these claims proved they were false: money was either going into the government's coffers or being used to fund the arms trade. 

Organized crime syndicates are very much involved in the trading of ivory and animal parts such as rhino horns. Despite the ban, Hong Kong, the largest market for ivory, still manages to import ivory, as do many other markets in China, The Phillipines, Thailand, China and Japan. CITES has not stopped the trade - it's merely been driven underground. Yes, we aren't talking hides here, but still there's no way I would ever use elephant hide. 

Phew. Sorry for the rant - they are such intelligent animals, and have such strong family bonds. If a female is killed, her calf will not survive unless it can bond with either a human or another female elephant. It isn't just about getting nourishment, either. Without the touch and comfort of another animal, these babies will die, just as human babies die without nurture. And the bonds are life-long. Elephants that have been raised by humans still recognize their caregivers 30 years later.

I come from a family of farmers on my dad's side, so have no problem with anything that's been raised for food. I feel introduced species like pythons in Florida are also fair game. I also recently found a source for deer and moose hides that relies solely on hides from animals shot by indigenous hunters for food. (Tribal Spirit, in Quebec). They sell the hides much more cheaply that other sources I've come across, and there's no import duties for this Canuck!   

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Sheilajeanne

[tsunkasapa]

32 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

The downside of trying to protect a species is how the protection sometimes backfires. Horse lovers have succeeded in getting the slaughter of horses banned in the U.S.A. That means the unwanted, elderly and infirm are now shipped long distances to meet their deaths in Mexico or Canada, or even shipped overseas. Many are injured or even die during shipping. Horses are also being abandoned and left to starve rather than being shipped. 

There was a bill passed to prohibit the TRANSPORT of horses for slaughter. It does not stop morons from turning them loose to fend for themselves however.

[Frodo]

I want to make a wallet out of the roadrunner  BEEP BEEP 

[Sheilajeanne]

LOL!

Just came across the cartoon today. Amazing how popular the roadrunner still is after all these years!

 

[Klara]

Personally, I have no problem with the PETA lady being barbecued and turned into a handbag... We have domesticated certain species, now we are responsible for them. Most sheep breeds must be shorn because otherwise they'll suffocate under their wool (there are no wild sheep!). In the wild my horse would already have starved for lack of teeth (he's 31 and fine - apart from missing teeth). Many dog breeds are unable to fend for themselves. A dairy cow must be milked because her calf can't empty her udder. So what's the plan?  We let the animals go into the "wild" where they die in agony?

In Germany there used to be an association for the protection of horses that promoted the eating of horse meat. So that unwanted horses would be slaughtered and eaten locally instead of being shipped to Italy or France. There still is an association for the protection of rare domestic breeds, and their motto is: Preservation by eating. Because there is not enough of a market for purely pet sheep, pigs or cattle. Not to mention that any halfway serious breeding program only works if you cull inferior animals.

As for the exotics: I am torn between "if an animal is dead anyway, let's use it as completely as possible" and cybertracy's very real concern (14 Oct 2008). If there is no market at all for a certain product, there is no point in poaching... But burning a pile of elephant tusks because there is no longer room to store them seems like a terrible waste...

But maybe only because I grew up with the idea that ivory is something precious. I have no problem with tons of farm animals unfit for consumption being burned every day...

Difficult subject, and I very firmly can't decide... (well, I won't use exotic leather any time soon for lack of money and skill)

Edited July 30, 2021 by Klara

[Frodo]

14 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

LOL!

Just came across the cartoon today. Amazing how popular the roadrunner still is after all these years!

 

Best of Coyote and Roadrunner (2) - Cartoon (english) - YouTube

[toxo]

2 hours ago, Klara said:

As for the exotics: I am torn between "if an animal is dead anyway, let's use it as completely as possible" and cybertracy's very real concern (14 Oct 2008). If there is no market at all for a certain product, there is no point in poaching... But burning a pile of elephant tusks because there is no longer room to store them seems like a terrible waste...

I don't know how much ivory we're talking about but maybe if all the contraband ivory was sold to the open market at cost the cost of ivory would plummet and it would no longer be worth the risk to the poachers.

[Klara]

That's not a bad idea either... And I think it's not just contraband ivory - I would imagine game wardens pick up the ivory in elephant graveyards. In any case a friend who uses mammoth ivory for his knives told me several years ago that arme authority in Africa chose to burn tusks because they didn't know what else to do with them. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Klara

[chuck123wapati]

19 hours ago, Frodo said:

I want to make a wallet out of the roadrunner  BEEP BEEP 

why so it can keep up with how fast your money goes?  lol

[chuck123wapati]

20 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

 

 

The downside of trying to protect a species is how the protection sometimes backfires. Horse lovers have succeeded in getting the slaughter of horses banned in the U.S.A. That means the unwanted, elderly and infirm are now shipped long distances to meet their deaths in Mexico or Canada, or even shipped overseas. 

 

The wild horse problem here goes even further they live on crucial winter range for the wildlife year around, come winter there is no forage for the elk , deer and pronghorns so many die off. the liberals have any real management efforts  totally blocked at the federal level so they overpopulated. Of the few that do get caught we send some to the honor farm, prison, to be broke and trained then are sold to horse buyers.

[oltoot]

Wild Horses were getting along with native wildlife before bison and Indians were killed off and replaced by domestic livestock and so on. How far back do you go to put things right? Today's wild horses must be managed, not eliminated

[Sheilajeanne]

[agrees with oltoot]

The reason wild horses had to be protected was because ranchers felt they were competing with cattle and other livestock for grazing, so they were rounding them up and sending them to slaughter, or sometimes just shooting them, or even poisoning their waterholes. Never mind that the mustangs were on the land for generations before ranchers came with their cattle. 

Read Margeurite Henry's book about Wild Horse Annie* if you want the full story about the fight to protect them. Annie got involved after she noticed a livestock truck rolling down the highway with blood leaking out of it. She followed it to the slaughterhouse, and found it was crammed full of mustangs, many of them injured.   The movie, The Misfits, wasn't an exaggeration - the methods used to round the horses up were incredibly cruel.

*Mustangs: Wild Spirit of the West, by Margeurite Henry 

Velma Johnston, aka WIld Horse Annie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velma_Bronn_Johnston

[Sheilajeanne]

5 hours ago, Frodo said:

Best of Coyote and Roadrunner (2) - Cartoon (english) - YouTube

LOL< thanks, enjoyed that Frodo!

[chuck123wapati]

21 minutes ago, oltoot said:

Wild Horses were getting along with native wildlife before bison and Indians were killed off and replaced by domestic livestock and so on. How far back do you go to put things right? Today's wild horses must be managed, not eliminated

i totally agree

[chuck123wapati]

7 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

[agrees with oltoot]

The reason wild horses had to be protected was because ranchers felt they were competing with cattle and other livestock for grazing, so they were rounding them up and sending them to slaughter, or sometimes just shooting them, or even poisoning their waterholes. Never mind that the mustangs were on the land for generations before ranchers came with their cattle. 

Read Margeurite Henry's book about Wild Horse Annie* if you want the full story about the fight to protect them. Annie got involved after she noticed a livestock truck rolling down the highway with blood leaking out of it. She followed it to the slaughterhouse, and found it was crammed full of mustangs, many of them injured.   The movie, The Misfits, wasn't an exaggeration - the methods used to round the horses up were incredibly cruel.

*Mustangs: Wild Spirit of the West, by Margeurite Henry 

Velma Johnston, aka WIld Horse Annie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velma_Bronn_Johnston

they didn't have to be protected they had to be managed! 

[Sheilajeanne]

Chuck, first the wholesale slaughter had to be stopped. Velma's fight began during the 1950's, and she was fighting some very powerful interests. Management came after laws were passed to protect them. Of course, the population needs to be managed.

[chuck123wapati]

5 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Chuck, first the wholesale slaughter had to be stopped. Velma's fight began during the 1950's, and she was fighting some very powerful interests. Management came after laws were passed to protect them. Of course, the population needs to be managed.

its another thing you only know one side of sorry i wont debate it. I can drive ten miles and see the results. The  management has been stopped and wildlife as well as wild horses are starving to death.

[Sheilajeanne]

Can't argue with that, Chuck. Management ain't going to work if it's not being enforced. 

What state is this? And is it public or private land, or both?

[chuck123wapati]

30 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Can't argue with that, Chuck. Management ain't going to work if it's not being enforced. 

What state is this? And is it public or private land, or both?

Wyoming.  it is both, its called the checkerboard here because the gubment gave the railroad every other section of land 20 miles on each side of the union pacific when it was first built in a checker board pattern. they have started back at rounding them up the last few years but its still an iffy subject dependent totally upon politics instead of logic.    http://corrections.wyo.gov/home/wild-horse-program

Edited July 30, 2021 by chuck123wapati