Cowboy Cb-4500 A Dud?

[SethJ]

Well, after debating between the cobra and the cowboy,..I guess I really screwed up. I went with the Cowboy from toledo and Bob. Nothing but trouble since I got it. To start some parts were missing. Waited and got those in. But the machine simply WILL NOT PERFORM. It ran ok for the first oh,..30 minutes,..then that was it. Nothing but problems. I've damaged so much product I'm sick to my stomach.

The service is ok I suppose,...I keep speaking with Bob Jr. ...but anyhow,..he's sent me several parts,..trying this and that ,..and nothing's working. I can sew a single thickness of oh say 10 ounce,..DRY! not dyed,..or even slightly damp is a problem.

When trying to sew,..it will make 3 or 4 stitches,...the the thread gets frayed and mangled on the needle. It randomly skips stitches,....it makes a grinding noise when the needle goes into the leather. Sometimes,...the machine locks up! I mean something gets stuck,..and the belt turns,...but nothing moves,..its a bobbin problem supposedly,.....(we changed the bobbin race already)....

I switched from 346 thread,..to 277....that helped some,...now I can make oh 10 stitches before it malfunctions,.....

Does it matter if the leather is damp? Seems like it really goes to hell when I try and sew even slightly damp leather.

I'm still talking to Bob Jr,..but it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere,.....its been 3 weeks,..and I cannot complete a single project. I'm completely frustrated and pretty disgusted after spending $3000....it looks like a TOTAL Waste of money.

Are these machines supposed to be this troublesome????????

I'm at my absolute wits end and I'm fixing to take drastic measures.....any advice???

Edited January 14, 2014 by SethJ

[SethJ]

Something else,..I just tried again,..adjusted tension for a heavy welt I was trying to sew. The thread will BREAK after a few stitches,..its like it gets hung somewhere and it gets cut at the needle and frayed,...when going into the leather,...it rubs the side of the little guide hole.....I posted a video here,.....this is the jamming problem,...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyknrGtA_JQ&feature=youtu.be

Edited January 14, 2014 by SethJ

[SethJ]

I'm uploading a video of the thread breaking and fraying. I've adjusted tension great,..and less,..and everywhere in between with no sucess.

I should say,..with the 277 thread.//I HAVE been able to sew up to 10 ounce thick. Whether its two thin pieces,..or a single ply of 8-10 ounce,....the problems really appear when going to thicker materials.....

ah after a search,..you guys call it thread shredding,....thats what my machine does on anything over 10 ounce. I have 277 thread with a 25 needle,...it does fine on thinner leather thats untreated in any way( not dyed or cased).

HAS to be something out of adjustment,...I just stitched a single ply good heavy 10 oz,..and it performed flawlessly,..why cant I sew thicker?!?!?!?!!? I have to sew welts and such that are nearly 1/2" thick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLj_06dZlzk&feature=youtu.be

Edited January 14, 2014 by SethJ

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Bob has an excellent reputation for backing up his customers. Have you done a lot of machine sewing in the past? It is unfortunate but many problems come down to user issues with the machine, not the machine itself. Yes there might be a machine issue but as a dealer I have often found that the description of the problem and the actual problem are two different things when I visit the customer.

I have dealt with needles inserted the wrong way, not up to the stop, threaded the wrong way, crap thread, bobbin inserted the wrong way, customer adjustments etc, etc.

Technically there is no great difference between the Cobra and Cowboy machines and Bob and Steve both provide excellent backup

[Constabulary]

probably wrong needle size? Maybe chose one size bigger.

[CowboyBob]

Seth,

When you start sewing you can't just put the leather in & start sewng like I've seen in the video,you need to hold the needle thread for he first 3-4 stitches so it doesn't jam like it is.If you keep jamming it up like that it will get knocked out of time.

[neelsaddlery]

Hello:

Just a couple of things I saw from watching your video very closely:

1. Hold the top and bottom threads off to the right hand side at the 2 o'clock position when first starting to sew. This is not related to your problem but in doing so you'll be setting the thread in the right alignment for the hook to catch the first knot.

2. It looked to me in the video that the edges of the holster were not perfectly aligned. I could not tell for sure but it just looked that way. Your holster looks to be getting around 1/2 inch thick. Your machine is fraying the thread when it skips the stitch, which bigger harness stitchers tend to do. The thread fraying looks to occur every time the machine misses the stitch.

3. If the edges are uneven and you are sewing a folded item such as this, I would go up to the next bigger size needle, which is a 26 in this case. Try that and see if it helps. What you may be experiencing is needle deflection. Sometimes harder leathers will cause the needle to deflect out of the line of the hook and this will make it skip a stitch. As soon as the stitch is skipped the thread frays.

4. I would put a fresh unused needle in the machine in size 26. If the needle has a burr on the end of it that can make machine skip stitches as well as fray thread.

5. When the machine locks, check the motor and machine belts to see if they are spinning. The machine looked to be going very slow in the photos. If the belts slip then this can cause the machine to stop dead in its tracks. Check your belts for tension and bump up machine motor rpm by a couple hundred rpm. The motor will then make enough power to go through the thicker leather.

6. Its hard to tell from video but machine looks to be in time. Don't think this is the problem.

7. Make sure thread is traveling around disks of primary tension assembly. With foot down disks should spin as you pull on thread from front of thread take up lever. If thread is jammed between disks then this problem can occur.

Bob has been a great seller of the Cowboy brand of machines and he has excellent customer service. He will find the solution to this problem. Please do not worry.

[neelsaddlery]

I see one other thing in watching the second video you have posted. At no point should the flywheel spin and nothing on the machine moves. The flywheel screws have to be loose. Please do the following:

1. Remove the belt from machine and loosen flywheel bolts and remove flywheel. Then find the v-notch on the shaft that the flywheel goes on.

2. Align one of the two screws on flywheel with the v-notch on the shaft. When you place flywheel back on allow for 1/32 inch free space between flywheel and casting body.

3. Tighten BOTH screws securely making sure one of them is in v-notch.

We will find the solution to your problem. Hope this helps.

Edited January 14, 2014 by neelsaddlery

[neelsaddlery]

Hello again:

Watched the second video you posted.. I think it was the one entitle "Cowboy 4500......". Couple of observations:

1. When you first start sewing-- make sure the thread is through the hole in the inside presser foot before you start sewing. Again not likely to be cause of the problem but by eliminating potentially bad sewing habits you eliminate those from the list of potential problems.

2. It looked to me like perhaps the machine may have been threaded incorrectly. The way I personally set up my machines when they leave the Cowboy Distribution Warehouse is to put the thread through the eyelet above the primary thread tension, wrap the thread 1 1/2 times around the disks, then come out the same eyelet and go down through the thread take up spring and then up to the thread take up lever. In other words thread goes in eyelet above primary tension twice.....once on way in and once on way out. In doing it this way it is a lot less likely to get jammed in between the disks.

3. Make sure that the needle is shoved all way into hole in needle bar. Scarf should face to right and long groove should face to left.

4. Remember to reinstall flywheel according to my previous post. I can see for certain that flywheel is loose. It should never spin freely on shaft with machine doing nothing. Such a condition always indicates that flywheel is not tight on shaft.

5. Remember to try a bigger needle. That will help with needle deflection.

6. One last thing to try. Go get some fine grit emery cloth and cut off a very thin sliver. Remove the inside presser foot (the foot that has hole in it that needle goes up and down through) and floss the inside of the hole with the emery cloth. On rare occasions there is a small burr in the hole caused by the manufacturing process that slips by our QC staff. This can cause the thread to fray as well.

Thread fraying on these machines can be a double edged sword. If the machine skips a stitch, that can cause the thread to fray, but if the thread is frayed that can cause the machine to skip!!! By installing a fresh size 26 needle and running emery cloth in inside foot you will remove two possible causes of thread fraying.

Hope this helps.

[neelsaddlery]

Hello yet again:

One other suggestion with the thin sliver of emery cloth. Floss the black hole that you have threaded in the collar that the needle fits in. This is the last hole that you thread before threading needle. This hole can sometimes have rough edges and that can start the fraying process as well.

Be sure to put paper towel over needle plate to stop shavings from going into hook, them blow off with compressed air.

There is a special kind of abrasive string called "Mitchell's Abrasive Cord" that has aluminum oxide embedded into cloth string. Lot of sewing machine folks have it. Maybe hardware stores do too. It works like a champ. But if you can't find it then a thin sliver of emery cloth will work.

Just trying to eliminate any areas where thread would fray.

Hope again that this helps.

[SethJ]

Thanks for all the replies! Ok this morning I'm back trying again. I have re threaded the machine and changed the needle to a #26.

Oh The flywheel issue- Bob had sent a new bobbin race and since installing it,..I dont seem to have that issue anymore(YES THE FLYWHEEL WAS TIGHT) that was the first thing I thought too. But the shaft would turn,..just nothing would move.

Ok I rethreaded with #346 on top with a 26 needle,..and 277 on the bobbin. I also threaded like someone said going thru the eyelet over the tensioner twice(in and out)......

I HAVE NO DOUBT ITS USER ERROR LOL....the machine runs too well when it does run,...so its something going on ...

does anybody know about WET leather? It seems to affect the sewing.

Ok I just put two perfectly flat pieces of 10 ounce in the machine. It sewed it perfectly for about 20 stitches then I stopped,..no issue,..stitches look good,..tension looks good,..knot is hidden,..no pucker.

The issue comes when I have a good prepared piece of work!!!AAARRGGGHHH!!! Like the edge of a holster.....I THINK I AM DEFINATELY GETTING SOME NEEDLE DEFLECTION AS SOMEONE MENTIONED.....AND YES IT SHREDS ON A MISSED STITCH only,..NO OTHER TIME......

getting closer!! I think the WET leather is a big issue,.....something happening there....

Edited January 14, 2014 by SethJ

[SethJ]

Hello again:

Watched the second video you posted.. I think it was the one entitle "Cowboy 4500......". Couple of observations:

1. When you first start sewing-- make sure the thread is through the hole in the inside presser foot before you start sewing. Again not likely to be cause of the problem but by eliminating potentially bad sewing habits you eliminate those from the list of potential problems.( OK I DID NOT KNOW TO DO THIS,..THANKS!)

2. It looked to me like perhaps the machine may have been threaded incorrectly. The way I personally set up my machines when they leave the Cowboy Distribution Warehouse is to put the thread through the eyelet above the primary thread tension, wrap the thread 1 1/2 times around the disks, then come out the same eyelet and go down through the thread take up spring and then up to the thread take up lever. In other words thread goes in eyelet above primary tension twice.....once on way in and once on way out. In doing it this way it is a lot less likely to get jammed in between the disks.( OK DID THIS,..GOOD IDEA,..I WAS ONLY GOING THRU ONCE AND IT WAS AN OCCASSIONAL ISSUE GETTING OUT OF DISCS)

3. Make sure that the needle is shoved all way into hole in needle bar. Scarf should face to right and long groove should face to left(YEP,..ALL OK).

4. Remember to reinstall flywheel according to my previous post. I can see for certain that flywheel is loose. It should never spin freely on shaft with machine doing nothing. Such a condition always indicates that flywheel is not tight on shaft.( SHAFT WAS SPINNING,..LIKE INTERNALS SLIPPING BUT PROBLEM WENT AWAY WITH BOBBIN RACE CHANGE)

5. Remember to try a bigger needle. That will help with needle deflection.( uSING A 25 WITH 277 AND 26 WITH 346,..SEEMS THATS NOT A BIG ISSUE)

6. One last thing to try. Go get some fine grit emery cloth and cut off a very thin sliver. Remove the inside presser foot (the foot that has hole in it that needle goes up and down through) and floss the inside of the hole with the emery cloth. On rare occasions there is a small burr in the hole caused by the manufacturing process that slips by our QC staff. This can cause the thread to fray as well.( DONT SEE ANY BURRS/ ROUGHNESS,..IT ONLY SHREDS ON A SKIP-STITCH)

Thread fraying on these machines can be a double edged sword. If the machine skips a stitch, that can cause the thread to fray, but if the thread is frayed that can cause the machine to skip!!! By installing a fresh size 26 needle and running emery cloth in inside foot you will remove two possible causes of thread fraying.

Hope this helps.

GREAT INPUT THANK YOU!

[CowboyBob]

Seth,I'll send a pack of #26 (next size larger) and that should cure your needle deflection.

[SethJ]

ILooking back my comments seem harsh about it being a dud,.....let me catch my breath,....I'm SO FRUSTRATED.

The machine runs well under ideal conditions,....it's just destroyed a LOT of my work,...and its really bugging me.

When it does work,..it works beautifully......I just have to get past these issues and I'm concerned.

[neelsaddlery]

Seth:

In theory wet leather should sew more easily than dried leather. It should be a lot easier to sew the wet leather. I would check the flywheel to make certain that it is lined up with the v-groove and tighten all bolts again. If the flywheel turned as it did in the video then the only other thing that could cause it other than a loose flywheel is if all the gears were racked out of the back of the machine and this would be impossible as the machine would not sew at all.

Polish inside presser foot and black collar holes just to be sure thread will not fray.

If you cannot get ahold of Bob, you can call me and I can help you with any issues you may be experiencing.

[SethJ]

Seth,I'll send a pack of #26 (next size larger) and that should cure your needle deflection.

No No! I have some 26! I'm running 26 with 346 on top this morning,.....and 277 on bobbin,....doing some experiments...just hang tight,..I do however need the holster plate which I didnt recieve?

QUESTION?: Does the holster plate use the walker foot? Or is it removed like the stirrup plate?

Edited January 14, 2014 by SethJ

[neelsaddlery]

Seth:

Try using the 26 needle with the 277 thread. The big needle will not deflect as much as the smaller 25 needle. Yes it will punch bigger holes but the added thickness of the 26 needle will mean that it will not deflect as badly.

Check that flywheel!!!!! I know I just mentioned it a billion times in my previous posts but trust me when I say the wheel could only do what it did in the video if one of the set screws slipped out of the v-groove.

Hope this helps.

[SethJ]

Seth:

Try using the 26 needle with the 277 thread. The big needle will not deflect as much as the smaller 25 needle. Yes it will punch bigger holes but the added thickness of the 26 needle will mean that it will not deflect as badly.

Check that flywheel!!!!! I know I just mentioned it a billion times in my previous posts but trust me when I say the wheel could only do what it did in the video if one of the set screws slipped out of the v-groove.

Hope this helps.

Ok the flywheel issue has been resolved! The 346 thread was snagging in the bobbin race and locking everything up,...Flywheel is TIGHT! the shft was even turning. But this issue seems to have been resolved on changing the bobbin race!

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Seth, between Bob and Neels' posts you should have all you need to get it running the way it was supposed to. I have one and it performs flawlessly, and has ever since I bought it over a year ago. I sew everything wit it, wet, dry, 2 to 3 oz up to and including doubled and tripled 12-13 oz. The only thing I see that was not mentioned in the posts by the other guys is, and I am not sure about this, but; it looks like you have the thread looping through the arm thread guide bottom assembly, it should only go straight through once. Again, not sure, but; it looks like that in the second video. Don't give up, you have a really good machine, and once it is set up correctly and you are used to using it, you will find yourself using it for everything. Bob

[SethJ]

This might sound stupid,..but I have a roll of Black 346 that runs ok on the bobbin and the top......white runs like crap,..the black runs good! lol

I think I'm losing my mind. The black even feels different,..like softer,..not as brittle,.....

[Northmount]

This might sound stupid,..but I have a roll of Black 346 that runs ok on the bobbin and the top......white runs like crap,..the black runs good! lol

I think I'm losing my mind. The black even feels different,..like softer,..not as brittle,.....

Do a search for black and white thread, look for comments from Wizcrafts for some explanation and tweaks needed when changing between the two

Tom

[J Hayes]

Welcome to sewing machines! Sometimes that wirey springing thread will cause all kinds of problems, the loop will not form properly and the hook may miss it completely, causing skipped stiches or the hook can pierce the top thread causing fraying. Also moving the work at the wrong time in the needle stroke can cause issues, turning before it rises 1/4, or tilting the work too. I did a belt the other day and dropped stiches (mine never missed any before) well the belt was kinda flopping around a bit causing the needle to move causing thr hook to miss. I didn't watch you videos yet so thats purely an observation of my own work.

Keep at it, you'll get it.

[Wizcrafts]

Seth;

Where do you live? If it is within driving distance of Flint, Michigan, I'll come to you and try to set the machine up properly.

[gottaknow]

Seth;

Where do you live? If it is within driving distance of Flint, Michigan, I'll come to you and try to set the machine up properly.

I knew you were a softy Wiz...

[Wizcrafts]

I knew you were a softy Wiz...

There could be beerz at the other end!