Cowboy Cb-4500 A Dud?

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

User frustration is a common problem. No matter how professional the dealer an edge of frustration can slip in there too because no professional enjoys it when a user has problems. Hope you have not seen any of our third party comments as being a personal attack on you as most of us have seen the way Bob has helped people when they did not even buy a machine from him!

ILooking back my comments seem harsh about it being a dud,.....let me catch my breath,....I'm SO FRUSTRATED.

The machine runs well under ideal conditions,....it's just destroyed a LOT of my work,...and its really bugging me.

When it does work,..it works beautifully......I just have to get past these issues and I'm concerned.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Seth, not stupid at all! There are two types of white thread - raw white and bleached white - and most coloured thread is made from the raw white. The bleaching process can cause changes to the thread properties and often cause it to be stiffer. An off or Raw White thread is a safer proposition as it will run better and will be less likely to break down over time in UV light.

This might sound stupid,..but I have a roll of Black 346 that runs ok on the bobbin and the top......white runs like crap,..the black runs good! lol

I think I'm losing my mind. The black even feels different,..like softer,..not as brittle,.....

Only consider the important issues mate.

There could be beerz at the other end!

[neelsaddlery]

There could be beerz at the other end!

God I could use a few of them right now!!! Wiz, you are very computer saavy as I can see from your work here. On a totally unrelated note I have seen where you will type a sentence in blue and in doing so that sentence will link to a website or some other reference direct from your highlighted blue text.

Because I still believe there are small demons living in the black box that is called a "computer" I have been unable to figure out how to tell them how to do this.

Could you be a sport and share with me how that process is accomplished? Might be nice when typing an answer to a question and I need to show a link to a manual or something.

Thanks Wiz, and yes you truly are one!!!!

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Neel,

As anyone with any common sense knows computers are powered by black magic.

When they blow up they let the smoke out just like any electrical device but there is a certain evil smell to it that attacks your brain and points out that you have just lost all the files you have saved over the years.

God I could use a few of them right now!!! Wiz, you are very computer saavy as I can see from your work here. On a totally unrelated note I have seen where you will type a sentence in blue and in doing so that sentence will link to a website or some other reference direct from your highlighted blue text.

Because I still believe there are small demons living in the black box that is called a "computer" I have been unable to figure out how to tell them how to do this.

Could you be a sport and share with me how that process is accomplished? Might be nice when typing an answer to a question and I need to show a link to a manual or something.

Thanks Wiz, and yes you truly are one!!!!

[joeyrsmith]

Ryan, let me tell you how.

When you reply to the topic in the reply box at the bottom, two lines of icons appear.

At the second row 9 from the left is a link icon.

Two ways. You can type a word like "link here" highlight it with your mouse and then click on the link icon.

It will bring a box up where you can type or paste the web site/link you want. Then the word/words become a link in blue to the spot.

Or just click the icon link type the web address in and the link will appear where you have your blinking text cursor.

Hope that helps

Joey

[Wizcrafts]

Ryan;

Here I am replying to a question on the LWN forum. There are some icons above the text area. The ninth icon looks like a figure 8 sideways, with a green ball under its right side. Clicking on that icon opens a box where you can type or paste in a hyperlink to a web page.

The photo below shows the "URL" dialog box that opens after I click on the "link" icon.

[neelsaddlery]

Ryan;

Here I am replying to a question on the LWN forum. There are some icons above the text area. The ninth icon looks like a figure 8 sideways, with a green ball under its right side. Clicking on that icon opens a box where you can type or paste in a hyperlink to a web page.

The photo below shows the "URL" dialog box that opens after I click on the "link" icon.

Wiz:

Thanks a bunch. I just have to find the icons you are referring to. I use my cell phone a lot to access web and never saw the mentioned icons. It could be I need to access from a desktop application.

Damn those demons living in my computer!!!!

Thanks again. Will look for the icons.

Th

[Leatherbaron]

Hiya Seth , I had a hell of a lot of similar problems to start with , one of my main problems was not holding the thread for about 4 holes ... if i did not my bobbin would catch and lock up a lot. cheers

[Wizcrafts]

You are correct Ryan. I am typing this reply on my smartphone and there are no icons over the text field. I am using Firefox for Android. I will log in with Google Chrome and see if the icons appear in it.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[shooter55]

Seth,

This is not a note on how to fix the issue, but rather a 3rd party, no dog in this fight, observation. I can understand your frustration and initial knee-jerk reaction that the machine is bad. That may be the case, when this is figured out in the long term, but have to state that it appears that Bob, Bob Jr. and Ryan are all trying to help you in correcting this issue, regardless of the cause. Their reputation and history of excellent customer service and care are very evident in their communication, even though there has been, dare I say less than, fair videos put on youtube declaring that the issue is the machine. This is not a condemnation of what has transpired, but viewing this with some clarity from an outside observer.

I have a considerable amount of Cowboy product in my shop and, yes, have encountered some occurrences that have also frustrated me, but have always had the support and guidance in getting those issues resolved.

I sincerely hope that you find resolution to the issue and am relatively positive the responses you are getting from the 3 people mentioned above, will provide that.

Good luck and hope to hear how everything turns out.

Shooter

[Wizcrafts]

No icons over text field in Chrome for Android. I shall investigate why.

[Wizcrafts]

I was recently having intermittent problems where the top thread got caught between the top of the shuttle and the shuttle race. I couldn't figure out why, as I always hold back the threads when I start sewing (on all my machines). The cause and solution turned out to be rather simple and was due to an adjustment I had made months ago and forgot about.

Several months ago I wanted to sew with thin thread, to sew in something really thin. I set the bobbin tension to a light pull, so as to not pucker the thin leather. Then I tried in vain to balance the knots by backing off the top tension adjuster, but they stayed at the top no matter how much I backed it off. After checking for binding thread (wasn't) I finally traced the excess top tension to the check spring, which is attached to the bottom disk shaft. By default, it is set to a high tension to control thick and stiff threads used in heavy leather sewing, for which the CB4500 is designed.

Anywho, I loosened the nut on the back of the head, which locked in the bottom disk and check spring shaft and rotated it CCW, until it only exerted enough tension to return all the way down, with the top thread loose. After sewing that light job I forgot all about this adjustment.

Over time I began experiencing trapped top thread, loops on the bottom, bad bottom on reverse, etc. The other day I manually handwheeled the machine and watched the top thread jam into the top of the race. Frustrated, I called Bob Kovar and told him what was happening. The first question he asked was "are you holding the threads back?" I told him I always do. His next question was, "have you loosened the check spring or shortened its travel?" Silence on my end while I pondered this question...

I told him about the time months ago when I changed the setup to sew light leather with #69 thread and how I had to back off the check spring tension to balance the knots. He told me to tighten it up, increase the travel a bit and try again. The machine has worked flawlessly since I made that adjustment.

Lesson:

These machines are built with heavy components, including the pressure and tension mechanisms. Dumbing them down throws off all of the adjustments that allow them to sew dense or thick leather, with the heavy threads in sizes 277 and up. If one has to sew frequently on a cylinder arm machine with thin thread (e.g. #69 or #92), into 1/4 inch of material or less, buy another machine for that purpose. The 441 machines work best with thread sizes #138 and UP, sewing into 3/16 inch and MORE.

[joeyrsmith]

Does Bob or anyone know if the OP got the problem fixed?

Have not heard from him for a good while. Must be fixed I am guessing.

[canusa1]

my cb4500 works fine an after viewing the video there is no way that wheel should be turning an nothing happing downstream unless there is shaft failure

[Geneva]

I hate to bust your bubble but the machine did not destroy your leather projects. You did by putting the project in a faluty setup. Hope ya' get it figured out. I have never heard of sewing whet leather but there are lots of things I have never heard of.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Geneva

[Ferg]

I certainly agree with you on sewing "Wet/Damp Leather". With my couple years of sewing with two different machines I have no idea why you would want to unless the leather being sewn was/is very hard. The feet make marks on dry leather I can remember what it looks like when damp.

If the OP's video was placed on You Tube, shame on you. Bob and Bobby do everything asked of them and then some, they know what they are doing. An individual not having sufficient expertise to run a new machine should not be trying to put someone out of business with the reputation of these folks.

Hope everything is working for you.

ferg

[Tree Reaper]

I've had my 4500 for a couple of years and I'm still learning how to use it.

These machines aren't plug and play and pilot error is at the top of the list when something happens.

It takes time and mistakes to become proficient and you better have patience if you buy any machine.

Bob's service is second to none and there's always lots of additional help on this forum.

I'm very happy with my CB4500 and the service I have received from Toledo Industrial.

I would recommend the machine and the dealer to anyone interested in buying a machine.

[Red Cent]

The holster/welt problem is not solved with the accessories. Wet the holster at the front and use clamps etc to flatten the holster when you sew. If you don't the holster will naturally try to turn/twist down from the foot pressure kicking/flexing the needle out or in and jamming it into the machine.

I believe most all of us have been through correcting operator error caused by our ignorance or common sense. Some of the most obvious suggestions that are brushed aside turn into being the problem when analyzed.

"277 Thread with a Size 200 Needle

Is the most commonly used thread size in leather crafting from saddle and tack, boot and shoe,

gun and knife, and all other kinds of craft and industrial applications."

http://www.tippmannindustrial.com/images/pdf/Needle-and-Thread-Guide.pdf

I sew cowboy competition holsters and concealed carry holsters and I use 277 polyester top and 207 polyester bottom. If you want to hear how my Cobra 4 is set up now PM me.

[SethJ]

Ok let me clarify before the nazis all come out. I'm NOT bad mouthing the " Bobs". Its just frustrating like I said.

My youtube video is hardly mainstream and was for the purpose of showing the Bobs...and you guys...not to tell the world.

anyhow....after A LOT of experimentation this week I have a lot of the issues worked out I think.

THREAD seems to be a big issue!White 277...no probl;em,...like a dream. BLACK 346,...no problem,..just run a tad slower. The white 346,..forget it lol. I may try another brand.

I was able to sew a holster welt,..most of the problem was ME holding the piece at an angle in the foot,.,,,causing some deflection of the needle,..missing bobbin pickup etc....

Dryer leather does seem to sew better,..less feet print and other "white thread / dye issues)

Many of the issuses were a cummulation of a buncha little things,....I think a bunch of you guys suggestions helped a LOT so THANK YOU!

And THANK YOU Bob,..and Bob....I know Bob Jr has been down with the flu,..so I been trying not to bug him,..lol

Let me say this,...the 4500 runs AMAZING when you do your part. Its just a LOT of stuff to watch out for,..and i find I have to adjust tension when going from thicknesses. And a few other adjustments. I forgot what you call it,..but where the needle goes thru the lil hole in the like foot part,...mine was maligned,...and one of my presser feet was bent from a previous wreck and deflection,....so I straightened those out,..and shredding has stopped. Also whoever said to run the thread thru the tension guid twice,..like in and back out,..that helped tremendously!!!!

So all in all its running pretty good,..lots of little things coming together to create a calamity of problems.....most ATTRIBUTED TO USER ERROR! DOH*

Oh,.by the way I'm in Louisiana. Heres a holster I was able to get done the other day with the machine.

theres some other stuff on my page I recently did with the machine too,..cellphone cases etc... feel free to look www.facebook.com/sjfineleathers

and iif you want to friend me personally,....spook spook the sniper thats my facebook.

I havent been on much because I had a client wanted a saddle this week and i've been bowed up working on that.

DIDNT I READ SOMEWHERE about sewing shearling with the 4500? A Different needle of something? Something about the shearling getting snagged????

Edited January 20, 2014 by SethJ

[SethJ]

did this on the 4500 too.....

Ok back on topic,...yea I thought I'd heard somewhere that maybe I have to use round point needles when sewing shearling to skirting??

[SethJ]

Seth,

This is not a note on how to fix the issue, but rather a 3rd party, no dog in this fight, observation. I can understand your frustration and initial knee-jerk reaction that the machine is bad. That may be the case, when this is figured out in the long term, but have to state that it appears that Bob, Bob Jr. and Ryan are all trying to help you in correcting this issue, regardless of the cause. Their reputation and history of excellent customer service and care are very evident in their communication, even though there has been, dare I say less than, fair videos put on youtube declaring that the issue is the machine. This is not a condemnation of what has transpired, but viewing this with some clarity from an outside observer.

I have a considerable amount of Cowboy product in my shop and, yes, have encountered some occurrences that have also frustrated me, but have always had the support and guidance in getting those issues resolved.

I sincerely hope that you find resolution to the issue and am relatively positive the responses you are getting from the 3 people mentioned above, will provide that.

Good luck and hope to hear how everything turns out.

Shooter

Oh I completely agree....but at the time I started this post,...I was almost suicidal,..lol,...thank goodness i've worked some of the issues out with the help of Bob Sr and Jr,...and a hell of a lot of trial and error. And YES I think a big part of finding a solution was help from the members in here,...many very helpful posts!!!

[SethJ]

I certainly agree with you on sewing "Wet/Damp Leather". With my couple years of sewing with two different machines I have no idea why you would want to unless the leather being sewn was/is very hard. The feet make marks on dry leather I can remember what it looks like when damp.

If the OP's video was placed on You Tube, shame on you. Bob and Bobby do everything asked of them and then some, they know what they are doing. An individual not having sufficient expertise to run a new machine should not be trying to put someone out of business with the reputation of these folks.

Hope everything is working for you.

ferg

SHAME ON ME? Listen buddy....I posted a video so I'd have a way to visually communicate with Bob Jr,...nothing as vindictive as trying to hurt his business,..but I hardly feel the need to explain myself to you. thanks. Edited January 20, 2014 by SethJ

[Wizcrafts]

As for sewing wet leather, the Cowboy 3200, 3500, 4500 and 5500 all have stainless steel presser feet, feed dogs and throat plates, which will not darken moist veg-tan leather. I occasionally sew still-moist holsters to get as close to the shaped areas as possible with the stitches. Then I finish the shaping and let it dry with a blue gun inside, or the actual gun, wrapped in Saran Wrap. I usually back off the top pressure spring to relieve the force on the presser feet. I also sand the sharp bottom edges of the harness feet, then polish them on a buffer. All of this reduces the foot drag lines, but never completely eliminates them. A wide modeling spoon also helps smooth out presser foot tracks.

[Ferg]

SethJ,

Don't get all fired up at me. You are the one putting the video on You Tube. Sorry I don't buy the explanation, you could have sent the vid to Bob. I am sure you were frustrated. Everyone of us that bought a machine with little knowledge of what to do with them has had some of the same experiences. There are folks on this board who have been stitching/sewing leather as long as I have been messing with it. I laced most things before buying the machines. Folks with good hands and fingers do some fabulous work with hand stitching, I simply cannot do it anymore.

Hang in there, it gets more fun in the future.

Wiz,

I wasn't talking about the marks from types of metal. I was referring to the indented marks left by the feet etc.

ferg

[Techsew Ron]

FYI you can post a video to youtube and set the share settings to "unlisted", meaning only the person you send the video link to will see the video and it will not show up in search results or general youtube listings.

best regards,

Ron