Wet Formed Cue Case

[CareyB]

This is my first commission: It's a Wet formed, semi-rigid, saddle stitched, single cue case (1x1 or one butt, and one shaft). Came out looking sort of like a saddle scabbard, don't you think?

Yes, that is a single run of stitching. I started half way (at the bottom), leaving half the thread hanging, stitched up to the mouth of the case, and finished there, then picked up the hanging thread, and stitched up to the mouth on the other side. It's only twelve feet of thread

The inside is unfinished, with a deerskin sleeve for the shaft. The sleeve is stitched into the slimmer side of the case like a welt. It runs out the bottom as well, so there's no opening for chalk to get in with the butt. Shafts get chalk on them anyway, but the wraps on cue butts can be very hard to clean.

In a related question: After all the sewing, I'm wondering how you figure price for that? Perhaps I'm slow, but considering this one, and the prototype, it takes about four hours to sew each one.

Carey

Leather Newb

[Rayban]

Nice job, I like it. Very nice looking hand stitching and well thought out project.

What weight leather did you use?

As for pricing it out.....guess you have to figure what that 4 hrs of stitching is worth to you.....$10, $20 per? Totally up to you.

[RiverCity]

Looks good, nice clean stitch work. Just curious, why did you decide to wet form the case?

Chuck

[Leprechaunleather]

really nice work !

[BDAZ]

I make a similar item and I have made plugs from dowels slightly larger than the item, then after the item is stitched, I case the leather on the top and insert the dowels and allow the item to dry. It holds it's shape well without the hassles of a form and lengthy drying.

As for costing the stitching, I really don't think one can charge any more than the cost of machine stitching, unless the hand stitching is a desirable feature and here, it's probably not. You need to price it based on what the case will readily sell for and then figure your miserable wage for hand stitching from there.

Cya!

Bob

[kwelna]

As for costing the stitching, I really don't think one can charge any more than the cost of machine stitching, unless the hand stitching is a desirable feature and here, it's probably not. You need to price it based on what the case will readily sell for and then figure your miserable wage for hand stitching from there.

Cya!

Bob

i am sorry Bob, I would have to disagree. You have to get paid for yourtime, and hand stitching is a value added feature whether it is of actual\quantifiable value (Stronget lighter etc. ) or perceived value (nicer, more refined, special, unique). If for no other reason than to give your additional labor a value. Stitching time is the largest part of my pricing, it far exceeds the cost of materals. Leather Newb, you are in a bit of trouble as you did not give tthe buyer an estimate up front, This handicaps your ability to negotiate a final price. I know nothing of the pool cue case market, so I can not offer an opinion on the actual price, but there are a few custom pool cue case makers on this web site, they may be able to give you what they would consider a reasonable pricing structure for this piece of work. It may be a good place to start.

NIce job and good luck!

Edited February 5, 2014 by kwelna

[CareyB]

@Rayban, The leather is 6/7oz.

@Chuck, I'm just interested in wet forming. I see that few people are doing it, and I wanted to try it for a couple of projects. I've done a bunch of iPhone sleeves this way. I find it funny that I'm making something which will last a hundred years, or more, but the thing it's designed to protect won't last more than two, or three.

If I can get good at this, and develop some good moulds, and techniques, I'm hopeful I can carve out a bit of a niche.

@bdaz, I thought about doing it that way, and saw a couple of guys doing it (perhaps one was you), but I wanted to try this specific technique, and was going for a specific look, and, in no small part, I was trying to be different.

@kwelna, I did a bit of research into the market, and I do know how to price out a product, so I'm on the right track, I think. The first one was for someone I know, and there were delays because of research, experiments, etc. I paid for the materials, and then some, but not even close to a reasonable wage on the labour, not to mention tooling costs, depreciation, etc. I was under by almost half. I'm a bit nervous this will not be a viable product at the price I would have to charge.

I'm still hopeful, though.

Thanks for the kind words, and good feedback.

Another question: Any idea what kind of speed I should be aiming for saddle stitching? I'm wondering if there's a 'stitches per hour' number, or perhaps 'inches per hour', or some such?

Carey

[Rayban]

Carey, my opinion is that if you intend to go at this niche market, you'll have to be competitive in price. You'll only be able to sell the hand-stitching benefits to a few.....most will buy because it's a cool looking product, not because it's hand stitched.

That case can be machine stitched in 10 minutes and wouldn't jeopardize the quality of the piece.

Sooner or later you'll have to decide if you want to spend half the day hand-stitching those things.

[CareyB]

Carey, my opinion is that if you intend to go at this niche market, you'll have to be competitive in price. You'll only be able to sell the hand-stitching benefits to a few.....most will buy because it's a cool looking product, not because it's hand stitched.

That case can be machine stitched in 10 minutes and wouldn't jeopardize the quality of the piece.

Sooner or later you'll have to decide if you want to spend half the day hand-stitching those things.

I hear you, Rayban. Lots to think about.

[Chris B]

On the hand stitching speed, you may be able to email Nigel Armitage (I do believe he is a member on here) or maybe Katsass, those two come straight to mind about hand stitching everything. They might be able to direct you to a certain speed. (I didnt mean to leave anyone out on here that also hand stitches, those two just popped into my head)

Chris

[BDAZ]

i am sorry Bob, I would have to disagree. You have to get paid for yourtime, and hand stitching is a value added feature whether it is of actual\quantifiable value (Stronget lighter etc. ) or perceived value (nicer, more refined, special, unique). If for no other reason than to give your additional labor a value.

I'll see your disagree and raise you one.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense? The product is being hand stitched because the maker doesn't own an appropriate machine. If it was an item that required hand stitching or a product that would benefit from being offered to a market that appreicted and valued hand stitching, one could charge for the labor, however, I believe (I don't know for sure) that's not the case.

Cary has essentially made a prototype and is the process of test marketing and needs to establish a price for his production model that will both sell and compensate him for his time and materials. With the amount of stitching, it is VERY unlikely he will be compensated more than a few bucks and hour. You could ask around and see if anyone offers a leather stitching service. Ask them what they would charge and there's your number and an option until a machine is justified.

Another aspect is the value of the cue. If it is a $200 cue, a $100 case makes no sense, however if it is a $2000 cue, then a $200 case does. It's a rough figure but I have always found, with instruments , that the price of the case is +- 10% the value of the instrument.

Cya!

Bob

Edited February 5, 2014 by BDAZ

[Fullmetalsam]

Cool case !

But I wanted to chime in on the pricing thing as well

I'm with Kwelna on this - to me, it's the underselling your work that doesn't make any sense.

Regardless of the tools and/or machines at your disposal - you should charge a price that will cover your costs (and the time you took to make the item is one of those costs)... there's no point in selling otherwise... at least to me.

Thing here is that CareyB is trying to enter a well established market (cue cases) where they are some pretty strong competition which have doing this for a long long time and are experience in making cue case and have the appropriate tools to do the job well and quick.

But even then - I'm pretty sure Nigel Armitage doesn't price his goods as if they were machine stitch... he's known for hand stitching everything and he prices accordingly. It's not because a machine could do a better and/or quicker job that you should take that into account when pricing your work.

[BDAZ]

Sam, this quandary is not unique to leather products but any business making any product. I did 10 minutes research and it seems that the going retail price for a cue case is between $29 and $500.

http://www.billiardwarehouse.com/cases/index.html

If I were in your position and was serious abut making cases, I would pick a case from the above makers that is similar to mine and cut the retail by 10% or so as an introduction. Then you need to become as efficient as possible so you can produce these cases at a price that will both sell and produce a profitable business. This my include investing in a sewing machine, punches, different construction methods, etc. If you want to simply work of costs, labor and a fixed markup, you may price yourself out of the market.

I started making my cases, which are taking off like a rocket, I hand made a number of prototypes. I test marketed these prototypes and showed them to a lot of potential customers. I asked what they paid for the item they would be putting in the case, and what they would paid for this or have paid for a similar item. I then approached the local retail stores and asked what margin they would need on these hand made custom (the customer selects finish and can have his name stamped). I came in a few dollars cheaper than their expectations. Next I had to be able to produce these products' profitibaly and looked at all aspects of production, priced all my materials in bulk, eliminated as much hand work as possible using punches, a new sewing machine, air brush, and other templates. BAM! The orders are pouring in and I can produce multiple items in under 1/2 hour when it took me two or three each for the prototypes.

The product looks great, works beautifully and sells itself. If things go really well, I'll rent production space, buy another machine and hire some folks to ratchet up production.

If this is just a hobby, then by all means charge $500 or $1000 each and spend as much time as you need on each case, have fun and make each one a work of art.

Cya!

Bob

[kwelna]

Bob In many ways I agree with everything you say and and I think your 10% is a great rule of thumb for anyone looking for just any case. But I think you are forgeting the ego\vanity factor. SInce I can achive the same functional results with a peice of PVC tube, I can actually get by with a case for under $5-$10 . It will be ugly and maybe an embarrassment to carry, but functionaly it will work. So anything beyond that becomes a luxury item. So now you need to market to the persons ego \ vanity. Hence the higher priced cue cases. Think of it like a car. A Fiat will get you to work just fine, but a full sized Caddy\Mercedes\BMW etc. will get you there in comfort and "style" Luxury vs. Utility.

I am lucky in that I leather work as a hobby not a living. I have tremendouse respect for those of you that are able to make a living at this craft. SInce it is only a hoby for me, I only take on projects that interest me and I change a premium price for my work. It is not that I am a great leather worker, far from it. It is just that if i am going to burn my free time, I want to get compensated to a degree that it makes it worth while and defiently pays for materials and any additional tools. Oddly enough, I actually give away way more than I sell. Especially experiments and prototypes. I like to see the look of appreciation on my friends faces when they get an item and they have no idea why it is not right in my eyes. One other suggestion and something that I do, is the first one that comes out right or great, I keep for myself. Kinda dumb I know and agree, but there you have it, I never said I was the brightest bulb on the tree........

[BDAZ]

Based on the above and what I have seen on the web I would suggest that your cases should fetch $400-$500 to the right buyer.

Cya!

Bob

[shtoink]

I make a similar item and I have made plugs from dowels slightly larger than the item, then after the item is stitched, I case the leather on the top and insert the dowels and allow the item to dry. It holds it's shape well without the hassles of a form and lengthy drying.

With that setup, a vacuum bagging process might help. You could have it rested up against a smooth, flat surface for the back to keep it nice and flat. It'd also allow you to do multiple cases in a time, depending on the size of the bag you make. The vacuum won't care, it'll evacuate the air just the same.

Bagging material can be cut to the size you need and as long as it's sealed properly and taken care of, it's reusable.

[RiverCity]

I was refraining from commenting as to suggested pricing. I make cue cases for a living, and I know what the market will bear. Between the wet forming, and hand stitching, you will not be able to sell your design for anywhere near what it is worth, unless you do not value your time. I can saddle stitch, but choose not to based on what I would charge to do so. I purposely did not do pockets on my first cases in part because of not having a sewing machine. Pool players do not understand or care about actual leatherworking. There is one guy in the market right now making IMO some of the most hideous cases I've ever seen, with very bad leather carving, but he is doing well because his stuff looks flashy and he likes to use exotics. He got a fan base from looks, not quality. Show it to a room full of leather workers and he would probably get laughed at.

The suggested prices quoted so far are not accurate. For a non tooled case as you have built, you would be doing really well to get 200-250 for it. And that's after you have built a bit of a name for yourself. Pool players are cheap, and as I have said do not know or care about good leather work.

I recently sold this case for under 700 http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=53266 and with the time I put into it, I'm no where near what I set for myself as an hourly rate. In essence I lost money on the case. But in the cue case market, it was a fair price for the case.

Chuck

[CareyB]

Chuck,

That's much the same conclusion I was coming to. I did do that case for $200, but was thinking it should be around $350, which, for a 1x1 case is pretty freakin' steep.

Your case is fantastic, by the way, and certainly worth more than $700, based on what I've seen of the competition ;-) Unless you have a crew mass producing them, hand making a cue case does look like it might always be a losing proposition without some time-saving 'shortcuts'.

BTW - do you use a rigid insert? I've been hunting for the right material, and the best thing I can find is oval PVC conduit, but I can only find it in the U.K., and I don't fancy paying shipping on a case of eight foot pipes.

@shtoink, vacuum forming would speed it up, but wouldn't it leave marks on the wet leather? And how much does a vacuum former cost?

I'm loathe to use a sewing machine. It would not be the same product.

[Rayban]

At golf shops you can get these plastic tubes you use to keep the clubs from tangling up in the bag...those would be good inserts I think.

As for you comment re- using a machine, I don't agree.....but that's a whole nudder conversation.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Rayban

[BDAZ]

With that setup, a vacuum bagging process might help. You could have it rested up against a smooth, flat surface for the back to keep it nice and flat. It'd also allow you to do multiple cases in a time, depending on the size of the bag you make. The vacuum won't care, it'll evacuate the air just the same.

Bagging material can be cut to the size you need and as long as it's sealed properly and taken care of, it's reusable.

Has anyone used the plastic vacuum clothes bags? I would think a piece of ply with the item on it my do the trick?

Cya!

Bob

[RiverCity]

Chuck,

That's much the same conclusion I was coming to. I did do that case for $200, but was thinking it should be around $350, which, for a 1x1 case is pretty freakin' steep.

Your case is fantastic, by the way, and certainly worth more than $700, based on what I've seen of the competition ;-) Unless you have a crew mass producing them, hand making a cue case does look like it might always be a losing proposition without some time-saving 'shortcuts'.

BTW - do you use a rigid insert? I've been hunting for the right material, and the best thing I can find is oval PVC conduit, but I can only find it in the U.K., and I don't fancy paying shipping on a case of eight foot pipes.

@shtoink, vacuum forming would speed it up, but wouldn't it leave marks on the wet leather? And how much does a vacuum former cost?

I'm loathe to use a sewing machine. It would not be the same product.

Thank you! Mine are made by just me in my garage, and I'll tell you, some of my cases I've had 40-50 hours in. 2 of the names going right now are both operating shops over seas and their cost of build is probably pennies on the dollar compared to what I've got in mine. The big kahuna has stated he only has 12 hours on average in his cases..... Not sure how he accomplishes that feat, but it would certainly help....lol

I am using PVC pipes line with upholstery velvet right now.

The little case pictured is a 1x2 with the pipes

Chuck

[CareyB]

Very interesting, Chuck. And thanks for sharing. Another really nice case, too. I like this little one a lot.

So you only use PVC for the tubes? There's no outer shell other than some nice stiff cowhide? Hasn't Mr. Kahuna gone the other way - rigid outer shell, but no rigid interior tubes? Just a machine stitched 'sock' with lots of pockets?

Near where I live there's a felt manufacturer, and they make an all natural, Angora wool felt in 'olive green', which is almost exactly the traditional pool table cloth colour, and it's 1/4" thick. I'm thinking about making a case which looks like an antique naval telescope, or Victorian instrument case. I think it would look so nice, but material cost will be a bitch. This felt, in small quantities, is $155/yard (76" wide). That puts material cost over $200.

This would also imply I have to stitch down a 30" tube, inside, and out. I looked at Nigel Armitage's video about a tubular, leather box. Perhaps my idea to hand stitch it all is a bit misguided.

Edited February 8, 2014 by CareyB

[RiverCity]

Yes several of the makers are using an extruded oval tube with a cloth liner, padded or not. It has it's advantages and disadvantages. From a construction standpoint it's way easier, and cheaper to buy a premade interior from a shop in China. If it's padded well it can offer excellent protection, and lighter weight to the case. But it's not "bullet proof" in terms of protection. It's still able to be crushed etc. the PVC pipes are IMO the toughest protection, in terms of what they can withstand. And if they are lined well, they're not rattling around inside the pipes. The compromise is it's heavier. Combined with heavy leather, I use 8-9, it makes a case that is 1.5-2 times heavier than the others. IMO it's not a big deal, it's still only 6lbs, but there are some folks who prefer their case to be as light as possible.

As far as your felt, I would recommend against it. You'll never recoup your cost of materials. I could use carbon fiber pipes, but no one would pay an extra 200 for slightly lighter pipes. It sounds great, but it's not practical.

And I hate to say it, yes hand stitching will never be worth the dollars charged to a pool player. They don't know about or care about quality in those terms. There are several cases on the market that IMO are made poorly, but have good reputations based mainly on appearance. But they will fail within a few years if they are handled roughly. It's a funny market.

Chuck

Very interesting, Chuck. And thanks for sharing. Another really nice case, too. I like this little one a lot.

So you only use PVC for the tubes? There's no outer shell other than some nice stiff cowhide? Hasn't Mr. Kahuna gone the other way - rigid outer shell, but no rigid interior tubes? Just a machine stitched 'sock' with lots of pockets?

Near where I live there's a felt manufacturer, and they make an all natural, Angora wool felt in 'olive green', which is almost exactly the traditional pool table cloth colour, and it's 1/4" thick. I'm thinking about making a case which looks like an antique naval telescope, or Victorian instrument case. I think it would look so nice, but material cost will be a bitch. This felt, in small quantities, is $155/yard (76" wide). That puts material cost over $200.

This would also imply I have to stitch down a 30" tube, inside, and out. I looked at Nigel Armitage's video about a tubular, leather box. Perhaps my idea to hand stitch it all is a bit misguided.

[CareyB]

Chuck,

I hear you on the price point issue. I saw a friend of mine at league last Thursday, and he had just bought a full leather case, and it was horrible. I don't even think there was any kind of finish on it. Edges weren't finished properly, tooling was worse than mine, etc.

I just noticed you're in Portland. I lived in Camas, across the river in Washington, when I was a kid. Cheers.