Singer 31-15 & Needles (Again)

[bfranklin3]

I recently purchased a Singer 31-15. It came with two sets of needles. The first set of needles were marked "Singer" on the shaft, and from the eye size, look to be either #16 or #18. These have no scarfs on the needles.

The second set of needles were still in the package and are marked Organ needles 16x257/LR (110/18). These have a scarf on each needle.

Both sets of needles look nearly the same; they are both the same diameter and length (except for the scarf on the second set).

I was using #69 thread with the Singer needles to set up the machine, and got everything working fine. It sews correctly on either cloth or leather.

Without making any other changes, I then tried to use the Organ 16x257/LR leather needles in the machine. These did not work. They will not catch the bobbin thread.

In both situations, the groove on the needle was to the left, and threaded from left to right. However, when I reversed the Organ needle (groove on the right, still threaded left to right), it would sew maybe a dozen stitches before breaking the top thread.

Anyone have any ideas how to the leather needles with a scarf to work?

[bfranklin3]

Maybe I should have been clearer with my question. Does anyone know how to get size 16x257/LR needles to work with a Singer 31-15? I have read that these needles should work in the 31-15, but they don't. Does the machine need to be adjusted or retimed?

[cdthayer]

I won’t be much help. I have a Singer 31-15 in a treadle stand that originally came in a treadle stand. I’ve only used TEX92 thread and 16x87 110/18 needles in it so far. They have no scarf. I’m not sure what brand the needles are, probably MUVA, but I haven’t had any problems.

Back in 2007 when I ordered a variety of sizes of 16x87 needles, they sent me 10-packs of Organ needles DBx1 (16x231, 16x257, 1738) in sizes 90/14 and 100/16, but I haven’t ever used them yet. They both have a scarf, so I may run into the same problem that you’re having if I do. They sent me the unknown 10-pack of 16x87 mentioned above for the 18’s, and a 10-pack of DBx95 (287WH, 16x95, SY1515) for the size 20, and the 20s have a scarf. I have what is left of a 10-pack of unknown brand DBx1 (16x231, SY2270) in size 80/12 that I haven’t tried yet either, and they even have a tiny scarf.

In an old 1916 User Manual that I have, Singer recommended 16x73 in a foot-powered stand, and 16x87 in a power table, and they were both available in sizes 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, and 23. I guess back then, the sewing speed determined which needle Singer wanted you to use. I’m sure everything has changed by now. I’ve not ever seen a 16x73 needle, so I don’t know if they’re scarf-less or not.

CD in Oklahoma

[CowboyBob]

Are the 16x257 needles the same length as the ones that work?Are you putting the long groove on the left?

[bfranklin3]

CD:

Thanks for the information! I was unable to read the size on the Singer brand needles that work with this machine. My machine is pretty old; it's from 1902, so your advice from the 1916 manual is probably pertinent (unless someone adjusted the machine to different specs at some time). It sounds like I need to order and try the 16x87 needles.

CowboyBob:

Yes, the 16x257 needles look identical in size, length and diameter to the Singer brand needles that are working correctly. The only difference that I can see is a scarf and a longer shank on the 16x257 needles. However, the overall length of the two needles is the same. Yes, I am putting the long groove on the left. In spite of this, the 16x257 needles will pick up the bobbin thread only once out of every ten revolutions or so.

[CowboyBob]

You might want to check the shuttle & see if it is loose.Sometimes you can take it out(it's held on by 2-screws)& take the spring & ring off the back & clean it out,oil it & see what happens.

[cdthayer]

Your problems with your Singer 31-15 not liking needles with a scarf made me panic just enough to go see if mine would work with them. I tested with an Organ 16x95-20 needle, TEX92 bonded thread, on two layers of heavy recycled billboard vinyl. I'm relieved to say that mine picks the bottom thread up without any issues. I sewed a couple of stitch lines after taking a photo, just to make sure.

There must be some other thing causing your machine to not pick up the loop that the needle is supposed to make. I'd look for something causing the loop to collapse prior to the hook arriving at the needle. A common problem is too large of a needle for the thread size, allowing the thread to come back up with the needle.

CD in Oklahoma

Edited March 8, 2014 by cdthayer

[bfranklin3]

I took the shuttle assembly apart and cleaned it. There was a bit of lint, some dried oil, and a broken thread in it. After putting it back together, the Singer needle sews correctly only intermittently. It sews, but I am getting a lot of long loops on the bottom of the material and occasionally missed stitches. I replaced the Singer needle with a 16x257 needle. Same result! At least both needles sewing the same now. I wasn't able to correct this just through changing the tension.

I then started checking other things and noticed the needle bar height was a bit off and the feeding mechanism timing is a bit off. I'll go through the machine settings today and try to adjust things and then see where I'm at. I had been reluctant to mess with this before since the original Singer needles had been working.

Thanks for all your help!

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Thinkng that the hook is too far away from the needle.

[bfranklin3]

Just an update as to where I'm at.

I reset the needle bar height and the feeding mechanism using the method listed in the Singer 31-15 Adjuster's Manual. I've also taken the bobbin/hook mechanism apart several times and have figured out the trick to quickly get it back together (yeah!).

Both needles (an original Singer needle and the size 16x256 needle) correctly grab the bobbin thread now. It sews now, but the new problem I'm having is that I have lots of big loops at the bottom of the material. As I've messed with the tension on the bobbin thread and the top thread, it has gotten better, but not gone away completely. I see that there are several threads discussing this issue already here in the forums, so I'll go through these and see if I can find a solution.

Again, I appreciate the feedback and help! Thanks.

[bfranklin3]

Anne Bonnys Locker: I just saw your comment after posting my comment above. I don't see much of a gap between the needle and the hook. There are several threads on this topic also, so I'll look into this.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Wizcrafts]

Loops from the top thread under the bottom layer are caused by either little or no top tension, failing to feed the thread through the take up lever, or too much tension on the bobbin thread, or wrong hook timing. Verify that the top thread is threaded correctly.

Something that is not always apparent is the rotational timing of the hook when it meets the ascending needle and grabs the loop. The hook can be made grab the loop when it is retarded or advanced, by raising or lowering the needle bar. But, if it is out of sync with the direction of motion of the take-up lever (and check spring), bad things will happen. I had to advance my hook last year to resolve an ongoing problem of the top thread making a snap noise as it was pulled around the bobbin. The retarded timing of the hook allowed the take-up lever to begin its upstroke a little too soon, pulling hard on the thread before it was past the halfway point around the bobbin. Advancing the hook and raising the needle bar allowed an extra few degrees of rotation needed to get the top thread over the hump without extra stress. This made for better bottom stitches and no more loops under the work.

We are talking about very old iron here. My 31-15 is from 1921. It was never meant to use nylon thread, because such thread was non-existent back then. It was a tailoring machine, meant for use with cotton thread, sewing cotton, gaberdine and other light garments. My Dad had a 31-15 in his tailor shop, for 50 years.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[bfranklin3]

OK - I think I found the problem (a problem?) on my machine — it's weird that I don't remember seeing this originally.

By going very slowly — and watching and listening, I can see that when the needle is going down into the bobbin area, it hits the hook slightly (I can see the needle deflect and hear a slight scraping noise). With the 16x257 needle, the deflects but the scarf seems to caught slightly on the hook and the bounces off as the needle moves upward.

How do I adjust the needle to the left or the hook to the right to give a bit of clearance between them? Or is this due to the rotational timing issue that was mentioned?

[bfranklin3]

Last post I wrote that the Organ 16x257 needle is slightly hitting/rubbing the hook and that the scarf seems to catch on the hook. I then asked how to adjust the machine so that the needle is moved slightly to the left or the hook is moved slightly to the right to provide a bit of clearance.

Not receiving any answers, I decided to experiment a bit further. Since I have an old 31-15 machine from 1902, I thought I'd try a needle CDTthayer mentioned in his response.

I was able to obtain Schmetz 16x73 (16x1) needles [both numbers are listed on the box]. Although CDThayer mentioned that these are for foot-powered machines, I tend to sew slowly with my motor-powered machine. These needles are the same diameter as the 16x257, but do not have a scarf. However, they are about 1/32 of an inch longer than the 16x257 needles, so I adjusted the needle bar slightly to compensate.

For some reason, they do not rub the hook. These needles work great! No problems at all. So, I'm happy that the machine is running fine now. As long as I can obtain these needles, all is good. Again, thanks everyone for your help. Your comments set me on the track to find a needle that works.

However, I am still curious why the 16x257 needles (with a scarf) would rub the hook and if there are any adjustments that can be made to eliminate this. If anyone has an answer to this mystery, I'd love to know.

[Wizcrafts]

Maybe the needle bar positions the 16x257 too far to the left and it allows the hook to hit it.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I have an old 31 class around here somewhere and will try and dig it out but I am pretty sure you can adjust the position of the whole shuttle assembly by loosening the screw in the casting. Some oil and a scientific tap may be required.

Possibly the assembly had been adjusted for a worn shuttle and then a new one was put in and caused problems.