Barbour's Linen Thread Vs Tiger Thread

[JRLeather2]

I have never used Tiger thread, I am seeing a lot of talk about it here on the forums. I have always used Barbour's linen thread for my hand stitching and I have no complaints whatsoever. Has anyone else used both products and if so what are the differences?

[electrathon]

I use both Barbours and Tiger thread, often times depending on my mood.

Barbours is basically string. Tiger is basically braided cord. If you have trouble with piercing your thread as you are sewing, stay away from Tiger thread. Linen is not as likely to lasy in outdoor environments.

[Avgvstvs]

I use both Barbours and Tiger thread, often times depending on my mood.

Barbours is basically string. Tiger is basically braided cord. If you have trouble with piercing your thread as you are sewing, stay away from Tiger thread. Linen is not as likely to lasy in outdoor environments.

I don't get the last part. If you could clarify, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

(edit: dyslexic me...)

Edited March 19, 2014 by Avgvstvs

[electrathon]

Linen is more likely to decay in outdoor environments.

The computer I was using would do really weird things with this forums system. Letters would not appear, others would switch to different than was typed. Made for a lot of mistakes.

AND, I totally changed the meaning when I put in the wrong words (more verses less). I must have been tired that morning.

[Avgvstvs]

Thanks Electrathon.

I realised while reading your reply that lasy must have been a typo for last.

Why did the coffee have to take that long to kick in !?!?

As for Tiger thread vs linen, I can't contribute much as I haven't had the chance to fool around with linen thread yet.

I've only dabbled with synthetics, namely waxed polyesters from Tandy, Seiwa (from goodsjapan) and Tiger thread. What I can say in my limited experience is that Tiger thread is by far the most pleasant to use: the other too had way too much wax on and the extra wax would smudge when tightening the thread. Had to wipe-off excess wax from the thread to prevent this. Tiger thread doesn't have this problem as it is very slightly waxed.

Cheers

[Matt S]

Linen is more likely to decay in outdoor environments.

You know, I hear this a lot but never really seen any evidence to back it up. I suppose the theory goes that synthetic polymers like whatever tiger thread is made from have a biodegradability several orders of magnitude lower than that of linen. This may be true but we cannot look at that in isolation. I am no materials scientist but the vast majority of synthetic gear I have had fail has been due to ultraviolet exposure. Considering that a lot of leather gear will be exposed to sunlight in the great outdoors I think that this is a valid concern, and could well lead to 'rotting' (or at least failure) of synthetic threads before the equivalent failure of a linen one. Ron Edwards speaks to this in at least one of his books. While research in this area has improved massively over that past few decades since he wrote of it, I consider this to be a major factor in the longevity of my outdoors gear.

Linen is surprisingly tough. Plenty of old horse tack is still held together very well many years after its production -- and you should see how filthy a lot of it gets before being put away wet. It doesn't rot as easily as some will have you believe, especially when treated with natural antimicrobial substances when waxing; beeswax, pine rosin, tars and whatever else people use all contribute to this, including in repelling water.

Linen too has a further advantage in that it is much less slippery than synthetics. Ask any sailor or marlinspikesman who has worked in both types of material and they will all tell you about how frictionless synthetics are. As an example in traditional materials like linen and manilla a splice may only need three tucks to secure it but in synthetics five or eight may be recommended for the same work -- and then the whole lot whipped over for safety. This may seem like a great thing to ease stitching but it will reduce the ability of each stitch to 'lock' into itself. Indeed there are reports on this forum from experienced saddlers of having tack in to repair where the linen stitches have been worn completely away on both sides of the work but it is still held together strongly by the nubs of the stitches as they pass through the leather.

Remember also that stronger is not always better. As an example in fine cabinetmaking animal glue is often used in preference to the more modern PVAs and epoxies, despite the latter being much less hassle and considerably stronger. The reasoning is that if you knock over your lovely slender-legged side table, with animal glue there is a weak link; the glue pops and the leg remains intact, a simple job to repair. But with PVA (which is often stronger than the wood itself) you will have a broken table leg -- an expensive part to replace and that's before you even consider extracting the stump from the joint. Similar deliberate weak 'safety' links occur in electrical fuses and truck half-shafts. With leatherwork we might sometimes want the stitching to be the weak link that gives way before the much more expensive leather tears out, though I admit that such occasions are rare.

I don't want this to seem like I'm beating on synthetics. They certainly have their advantages in some aspects, I just prefer linen -- for the above reasons plus tradition and aesthetics. Synthetic polymers (not only in leather thread but also in clothing and other areas) are a lot less expensive for the manufacturers to produce, and very consistent but are not perfect in all situations. I think that linen gets a bit of an unfair hard time.

[Northmount]

When I was a kid, a long time ago, my dad ran a hog farm. We got a whole lot of flax straw for just picking it up and thought it would make good bedding in the hog pens. By the time spring came, and the hogs had been trampling the flax straw for some months, the pens were extremely hard to clean. If you tried picking up the mess with a manure fork, you were literally trying to pick up the whole pen. It was all matted together. Had to use an old silage cutting knife to break it up into pieces that could be thrown into the wheelbarrow.

So all the trampling and bacterial action did little to weaken the flax straw, just helped to bind it together. And of course you know that linen comes from flax.

So I have little concern that linen thread will deteriorate faster than synthetics.

Anyhow, the story would make a good cartoon!

Tom

[9tpi]

You know, I hear this a lot but never really seen any evidence to back it up. I suppose the theory goes that synthetic polymers like whatever tiger thread is made from have a biodegradability several orders of magnitude lower than that of linen. This may be true but we cannot look at that in isolation. I am no materials scientist but the vast majority of synthetic gear I have had fail has been due to ultraviolet exposure. Considering that a lot of leather gear will be exposed to sunlight in the great outdoors I think that this is a valid concern, and could well lead to 'rotting' (or at least failure) of synthetic threads before the equivalent failure of a linen one. Ron Edwards speaks to this in at least one of his books. While research in this area has improved massively over that past few decades since he wrote of it, I consider this to be a major factor in the longevity of my outdoors gear.

Linen is surprisingly tough. Plenty of old horse tack is still held together very well many years after its production -- and you should see how filthy a lot of it gets before being put away wet. It doesn't rot as easily as some will have you believe, especially when treated with natural antimicrobial substances when waxing; beeswax, pine rosin, tars and whatever else people use all contribute to this, including in repelling water.

Linen too has a further advantage in that it is much less slippery than synthetics. Ask any sailor or marlinspikesman who has worked in both types of material and they will all tell you about how frictionless synthetics are. As an example in traditional materials like linen and manilla a splice may only need three tucks to secure it but in synthetics five or eight may be recommended for the same work -- and then the whole lot whipped over for safety. This may seem like a great thing to ease stitching but it will reduce the ability of each stitch to 'lock' into itself. Indeed there are reports on this forum from experienced saddlers of having tack in to repair where the linen stitches have been worn completely away on both sides of the work but it is still held together strongly by the nubs of the stitches as they pass through the leather.

Remember also that stronger is not always better. As an example in fine cabinetmaking animal glue is often used in preference to the more modern PVAs and epoxies, despite the latter being much less hassle and considerably stronger. The reasoning is that if you knock over your lovely slender-legged side table, with animal glue there is a weak link; the glue pops and the leg remains intact, a simple job to repair. But with PVA (which is often stronger than the wood itself) you will have a broken table leg -- an expensive part to replace and that's before you even consider extracting the stump from the joint. Similar deliberate weak 'safety' links occur in electrical fuses and truck half-shafts. With leatherwork we might sometimes want the stitching to be the weak link that gives way before the much more expensive leather tears out, though I admit that such occasions are rare.

I don't want this to seem like I'm beating on synthetics. They certainly have their advantages in some aspects, I just prefer linen -- for the above reasons plus tradition and aesthetics. Synthetic polymers (not only in leather thread but also in clothing and other areas) are a lot less expensive for the manufacturers to produce, and very consistent but are not perfect in all situations. I think that linen gets a bit of an unfair hard time.

What a fantastic post Matt S. It's always nice to hear theory from people in other trades and different hobbies.

[scootinnc]

Matt,

Thank you for the incredibly thought provoking post. I have to say that I never quite looked at this subject in this manner, so thank you for the fresh insight.

[electrathon]

I really did not think there was anything controversial when I posted. My own experiences are that in fabrics, natural fabrics are less sun resistant than synthetic materials. In my limited experience with thread, the only decayed thread I have ever replaced was to a coworkers boat top. After about ten years the top fabric was in very serviceable condition, but the ( what looked like) linen thread was decomposing and the seams were opening. I resewed it with nylon and all was good. Not scientific at all, just my observations.

Aaron

[karlpv]

"Linen is surprisingly tough. Plenty of old horse tack is still held together very well many years after its production -- and you should see how filthy a lot of it gets before being put away wet. It doesn't rot as easily as some will have you believe, especially when treated with natural antimicrobial substances when waxing; beeswax, pine rosin, tars and whatever else people use all contribute to this, including in repelling water."

That's been my experience too. I've gone through a goodly number of boots in work and leisure. In the past, I've had the welt stitching in the arch area give out after a certain number of years, both linen and synthetic. Somewhere along the line, I read the suggestion to coat the stitching with epoxy, and that has proved to be an effecive remedy. I have a pair of 15 year old Whites (non-rebuilt) that will be retired soon. On their website, I see they still list "Irish Linen Thread" as a feature. Too, if conditions are enough to rot stitching, without care, the leather can't be far behind?

[Tannin]

I am stll fairly new to all this and I have only used (generic ebay) linen thread a little. I've also used SpeedyStitcher's fine & coarse threads which look like natural linen but are actually waxed polyester and most recently I've been using Tiger thread, which is waxed, braided, polyester. They all worked fine, well enough for me anyway. I am happy to use any & all.

Folk sometimes complain about synthetic threads (usually nylon) stretching or being difficult to tension -- however I believe polyester does not stretch like nylon, at least that is my experience using braided ropes of nylon and polyester. The Tiger thread does stretch a bit (not unpleasantly) but I suspect that is due to its braided construction. I like braided cords and they are usually finer, stronger & more robust than their (cheaper) twisted equivalents. I find it slightly easier to run the needle through the ends of the cord, after threading my needle, and it holding securely than in non-braided threads.

I find it a little easier to thread needles and to sew with Tiger thread but that is probably because it is thinner diameter (0.8mm) than my other threads, which I suspect are closer to 1mm. Also, I only recently learnt to use the fine, waxed ends of linen thread - I used to cut those flat, oops!

[ClaireAshton]

......... and there was I thinkin' our cousins 'cross the pond knew everythin', whens obvious theyse knows nowt....

I coats my thread, reclaimed thread from worn out britches from the charity shop (thrift shop?), in WD40 (or PlusGas?) to keep the water outof the thread. I dus this in said charity shop sose I don't get it wet on't way home or in house as many slates missin'. After I stitches, if the wallet is for export to the States, I dips in suncream factor 30 which stops rottin' in the sun. If for UK, I doesn't bother. No sun here and, in certain parts, they never gets their wallet out for it to catch any light goin'.

Just my 2p worth (2 cents) from the ol' country.........

Claire

[Erystawi]

what you mean the linen thread is flat? Is it one particular brand?

The linen thread I use is 3 braid, 5 or 6 braid linen thread, called 12/3 or 18/3, 18/5, 18/6.

I suppose there are more brands of threads out there

[ramrod]

.......................... I resewed it with nylon and all was good. Not scientific at all, just my observations.

Aaron

i had read (and i cannot remember where) that polyester thread is uv resistant but nylon is NOT. did i read that right? i assumed (as was confirmed by a few others here) that it was mostly the beeswax / rosin etc. that keeps linen from rotting.

[Colt W Knight]

i had read (and i cannot remember where) that polyester thread is uv resistant but nylon is NOT. did i read that right? i assumed (as was confirmed by a few others here) that it was mostly the beeswax / rosin etc. that keeps linen from rotting.

Polyester is used for outdoor applications like sails, boat seats, patio furniture, etc. because it has better UV resistance than nylon.

[BAD HIDE]

I'm also approaching the craft to get away from plastic disposable culture, so using plastic thread would be kinda silly when there's arguably better and natural alternatives. Linen just looks nicer imho. The extra durability and strength of the thread itself isn't really needed, and it locks down on itself inside the holes much better than anything else, making the seam far more durable even with the threads worn away.

I don't think it makes that much of a difference, but I'm at least 1000 yards away from needing more hand-sewing thread. I use #138 poly in my walking foot on canvas goods, but if there was a linen alternative, I'd switch there too just for the hell of it.