Ffl ?

[Boriqua]

Hey Guys

Someone brought this up on a gun forum and I thought I would ask here. If someone comes to you with a specialty request.."can you make me a holster for a gun that has this nifty attachment thing" .. the only way you can accomplish the build is with the gun in hand do you need to have an FFL to accept the gun for the time needed to make the holster for it?

[camano ridge]

My suggestion is to call your local ATF office and ask them, get their answer in writing if you can. That is what I did. My understanding is no you don't. How ever I don't give out legal advice and use my understanding of wha ti was told for my own purposes.Te problem with laws is that they are open to interpetation. One agent from one office may tell you one thing but an other office might tellyou something else. I was told that the gun is not changing ownership. My understanding of things suchas Pawnshops they are licensed to trade guns and when they give a loan for a gun that has been pawned they are virtually buying the gun then selling it back hence a change of owner ship. Again this is my understanding and interpitation. That does not mean that you may not be held liable if something happens to or with that gun while in your possession. Again please don't take my word for it call the ATF and get your answer form them.

[Chief31794]

X2 on above, however, I wouldn't think so, I'm not selling weapons nor owning more than allowed without a FFL so I am not too concerned about it and I won't make a holster without the weapon in hand.

Chief

Edited April 16, 2014 by Chief31794

[AndyN]

It's not just an ATF issue. Laws vary from state to state as well. For example, I live in PA and my understanding of state law is that a private individual who isn't in the business of selling firearms can sell, loan or give away a long gun without any kind of transfer paperwork, but any transfer of a handgun must be done through an FFL.

If you have a local gun store with employees you trust, they might be able to tell you how the law feels about a non-FFL holding onto someone else's gun for a few days. I think the only way you're going to get a real solid legal answer though would be to pay a lawyer for advice.

[Stitch Dex Holsters]

Let me start this out with the normal disclaimer: Always go to the ATF and check for yourself.

Now with that said I have investigated this exact question heavily in the past. What I found was, there are strict rules when it comes to receiving a firearm. To make a long story short, legally you cannot take someone’s gun into your possession unless you are a FFL. You need to log the gun in….yadda yadda.. the one exception I could find was if the owner of the firearm was there with you, you were good to go. I know that’s not what you wanted to hear (I felt the same way) and believe me I tried to find any loop hole. If you do find one please let me know.

Edit>>>One of the big reasons I was told was, If you take that persons gun out and commit a crime OR he has committed a crime with that gun. so on and so on You can see it is a never ending trap!

Edited April 17, 2014 by Stitch Dex Holsters

[Matt Alsaker]

Check out this thread...

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=44142&hl=transfer#entry276223

[BDAZ]

I am a former FFL holder and I don't believe you require one to take temporary possession of a firearm for either service or other purposes, however, depending on the weapon and your state, there may be regulations that you would transgress.

BUT, this is Arizona! As long as the weapon is not crossing state lines, and being hand delivered to your premises, there shouldn't be an issue.I shipped a gun to Ruger in Prescott last year via UPS which they returned also by UPS. No FLL involved.

BTW I was in Glendale yesterday..stopped in at Cabellas.

Cya!

Bob

Edited April 18, 2014 by BDAZ

[Lobo]

When engaging in activities that might bring about felony convictions, prison terms, and six-figure fines an abundance of caution seems to be called for. I don't think that I will place all of my reliance on what some BATFE employee tells me (even if in writing), or what my local FFL dealer tells me, or even on some lawyer's opinion of the applicable laws.

Whenever a firearm changes hands between two persons across state lines there is a strong possibility that it will be construed as a transfer subject to the Gun Control Act of 1968. For this reason I will not accept delivery of a firearm from outside my state without utilizing the services of a FFL holder to document the transaction, perform the required background check, etc. Likewise, on the return leg of the trip the firearm would go to a FFL holder for transfer back to the owner.

Here in Colorado legislation was passed last year requiring background checks for transfers between individuals, the only exceptions being transfers between members of an immediate family (father to son, etc). Now even when a local customer wants me to make a holster for his handgun I have him bring the handgun to my shop for patterning, then bring it again for fitting, and the customer does not leave the premises without taking the handgun with him.

There are other issues involved that deserve some thought. Who is responsible for loss or damage in transit? What about loss or damage while the firearm is under your control? Do you carry business insurance (your homeowners policy certainly won't cover business activities), and if so what are the deductible amounts, and who will be responsible for the deductible? What do you have for on-site security (safe, alarm system, etc)?

I can envision any number of distasteful scenarios. Someone owning a high-value handgun accidentally damages the piece, then arranges to send it off to a holster maker to have a new holster made, and when getting his gun back screams bloody murder and demands payment for replacement value of his pistol. It might be a custom hand-made one-of-a-kind competition pistol, it might be a valuable antique, it might be a rare collectible piece; whatever it is it might be worth the profits from 50 or 100 holsters.

There might be many good reasons to just say "No, thank you".

[BDAZ]

The difference is that someone could walk in and drop off an ounce of pot for a custom pouch in CO and you wouldn't have to worry about it. Here in AZ, we'll take the gun instead.

Of course your concern about receiving a damaged gun can be covered by a waiver and an arrival inspection. If it's an interstate shipment then the FFL can provide an independent inspection coming and going. Of course that same problem could happen with any article, shipped to your premises for fitting.

There's always a few bad apples out there but I can't believe it is a regular occurrence in the holster trade...

Cya!

[TexasJack]

Amazing.

So much paranoia about the way the government might screw with you while you make a holster.

All these people afraid (and confused!) by the supposed "Government of the people, by the people, and for the people" and yet we can't get anybody together to try to put the same government back into the control of the voters.

Very sad.

[lws380]

Over the last several years, I've had a few request from customers that wanted to mail their guns to me. I told them that they could only do it by going through an FFL on both ends. That would require two shipping charges and 2 FFL fees, that they would have to pay for. That typically ends the conversation as the cost of shipping and FFL fees are more than the cost of the holster.

My FFL recently jacked up his transfer charges, so I decided to get my own FFL. It cost $200 for the first 3 years and I believe $90 for renewal. The process took about 90 days and it was not that bad. I expected it to be much worse, but was surprised how easy it was to get the license. I found the ATF to be helpful and they have always answered my questions. I call them all the time for guidance to help ensure I'm doing everything by the book. I applied for the license in my company name.

So now individuals can mail their guns directly to me for holster making. I can in turn mail the gun directly back to them, since I'm only constructing a holster, not altering the gun or selling the gun. I do have to keep a log book for guns that come in for holster making, logging the gun in and out. Unfortunately, the individual does not have the same shipping options as an FFL holder. An individual with out an FFL has to use over night shipping with Fed Ex or UPS and that is fairly costly. A client did that a couple of months ago and it cost him $70 or so to ship it to me. I shipped it back to him ( I have to ship it exactly back to the address it came from, no where else) with his holster for about $30 or so and that included $500 for insurance. An FFL can apparently use the USPS for shipping, but my suggestion is to avoid the USPS like the plague. I was also told by other FFL's to not use the Postal Service. I simply take my package to a mom and pop contract mail center. I give them a copy of my FFL and also put a copy in the package and they ship it the cheapest way they can find. But you have more shipping options as an FFL and there is no over night requirement if you are an FFL. Always pay for the insurance value of the gun when shipping, they can get lost on rare occasions. Ever see those stories on TV with a Fed Ex or UPS truck burning on the road?

Someone might be able to find an FFL to ship for them, but the gun has to be shipped back to the same FFL and not the customers address! If the customer could talk the FFL into a deal on the FFL cost, that may be a better alternative to the customer having to ship overnight.

On occasion, I do buy real guns for molding. Having the FFL allows the guns to be shipped directly to me and avoid the FFL charges.

In regard to getting an FFL. One thing that kept coming up in my research and the actual process, has to do with where you live. It you live in a city that has an ordinance against having an FFl you will likely not get it. Also, if you have a homeowners association, they will have to approve you having a FFL before the ATF will approve. Luckily, I live in an unincorporated portion of my county and we do not have a homeowners association. Also, there has to be a business reason for getting an FFL. Just to buy guns at wholesale cost is not reason enough. Having an FFL to receive guns for holster making is a business reason.

There is record keeping involved and I think you have to keep your records for 20 years. However, I do not buy and sell lots of guns and I don't really do the transfer business for people. I've had calls asking what I charge for transfers and I simply tell them I don't do transfers as I got my license for holster work. Since I'm not doing tons of transfers, the record keeping is not that bad. I would also suggest having a good fire proof gun safe to store and protect someones property (gun) when they send it to you, as well as your records. You will have to log all weapons in and out in your FFL log book.

Edited May 1, 2014 by lws380

[katsass]

FWIW from the grumpy old guy: I live on the western edge of the Mojave Desert in Calif. I have made a few holsters over the years and have found that the only time I need to maintain a weapon, (being the subject of this thread) is actually when I mold the holster. Other than that all I need is to draw an outline of the shooter and take a couple of measurements. Almost all of the time the customer tells me to just keep the damned thing as long as it takes to make the holster to his specs and fit his gun to the finished chunk of dead cow skin. If I do maintain custody of my customer's shooter, I always issue a receipt indicating that the only use authorized by the owner is the fitting the holster to the gun. No FFL needed, even in Ca. Just saying. Mike

Edited May 2, 2014 by katsass