Followup to the locked topic

[Mattmatt]

I do not want to start a bunch of crap with a new post, but I thought this was interesting. If you want to understand what I think was being talked about in that other post do a Google search: "how to Use a forum to advertise"

I found forums dedicated to advertising. That is the point of some forums apparently? I had no idea?

[tashabear]

Dedicated to discussing how to advertise? Or dedicated to posting ads?

[Mattmatt]

The ones I looked at were dedicated to posting adds. Free. If I understand the process (I am not an expert) Google crawls forums all the time. So the more forums your link shows up on the better your chance of being on the first page of a google search. But your URL has to be on the post, just having it in your profile doesn't help at all. Once again NOT AN EXPERT I have been reading since I saw the first post here. I kinda live on my computer, but what 19 year old doesn't. Should be practicing my leather work more.

[Johanna]

LW encourages people to post their links in their profile and/or signature, and talk about their business and their products as appropriate. People don't use this board to spam, and they discuss whatever they want. We have had a few spammers, and we dealt with them, but they are not from the leatherworking community. See, many of of know or know of each other, so when you read a post here with someone's name on it, it means they aren't afraid to say, "This is what I think." Readers can decide for themselves who has more credibility.

By the way, Google lives on this board, and lots of other spiders are here every day. Links in profiles do matter.

Johanna

[Mattmatt]

Thats cool. Something I don't understand. People I hang with like some of the leather stuff I have played around with. If I ever get good enough how will they find my work. The only thing they want is the bracelet, they don't want to read a leather forum to find it. I did see the sales area but it's not broken into categories or published as a web page it is still a forum. Did I not look in the correct area? I just know the people my age are not going to get on a forum unless they are interested in the topic. Sorry not trying to offend just trying to understand.

[TomSwede]

Thats cool. Something I don't understand. People I hang with like some of the leather stuff I have played around with. If I ever get good enough how will they find my work. The only thing they want is the bracelet, they don't want to read a leather forum to find it. I did see the sales area but it's not broken into categories or published as a web page it is still a forum. Did I not look in the correct area? I just know the people my age are not going to get on a forum unless they are interested in the topic. Sorry not trying to offend just trying to understand.

Marketing yourself is an ever ongoing battle. You think of it when you go to sleep and you basically practice it as much as you can. There are just as many marketing methods as there are people. I use myspace and now also facebook + website/blog to show myself. Wearing my bracers to a bar often generates lots of interest and a few times I had orders on the spot at bars. Friends and their friends, tell 'em to show off your stuff since you obviously want get away with selling for full price to them.

I don't have hordes of customers, I barely break even on the stuff I make. I've made unprofitable portfolio stuff to show at my website, hopefully one day the right customer stumbles in and see that big bold rodtube and think it is a must have.

At the moment I feel like I should do more to attract attention to my work but gotta have time to work the leather too.

Allways carry something nice with you to showoff. When you say you work with leather people will be curious but probably not think about how cool stuff we can do. At least not here in Sweden. It is impossible to explain my work to someone here so I direct them to my website to look att all the stuff. This has not generated too many jobs the past four mounths the site been up but it has spawn a very high interest amongst people around me. I'm builiding a rep.

I look for people with special needs and target them.

Why did I make that first bracer? Easy..I wanted to showoff. The ones available looked like crap but my friends had them so I made one of my own and sold three more right on the spot because now those friends wanted to be no less;-)

One guy at work came up to me and wanted a type of tool bag matched to his vintage US car and we discussed a bit and drew up a nice design then he said..-oh waitup, I'll go and check with two other guys. When he came back he told me that they had been surfin my site and the other also wanted this for their car. One of them is into serious car competitions with a $70 000 car and wanted it done and completely matched to the cars interior before summers first show. Could be favourable customer perhaps.

Marketing is the darkest cloud over my head and I often feel bad about it. I'd rather spend my time here and work leathers alot more.

Imagination is your best friend and most things are allowed. Lying about your product and backstabbing the competition is something I hate.

Good luck with it, I'll let you know if I get any;-)

Tom

Edit: I hope no one saw the horrible typo I made, sorry!

Edited October 12, 2008 by TomSwede

[Mattmatt]

Tom this is all cool. Other dudes have told me basically the same thing. But I have seen more than one post from Johanna (!!!! please don't get mad at me!!!!) saying this site sells. I believe that if your a member. But if your not a member then I guess I default to what you stated Tom. I won't misrepresent my self, I give stuff to good friends because I think my stuff is still crappy. They sometimes give me some money but that just covers material. I liked the idea of using other forums to try and sell when I am ready, that idea didn't seam to go over so well here. I tried to PM the dude that posted that stuff to get clarification, he seams to be gone.

Tom I put your post in my notes so I can refer to it some day. Does anyone else have any other ideas?

[Billy P]

I may be wrong, as I often am, but it seems to me that the purpose/goals of the LeatherWorker.net/Forum from the start was not so much selling, but a place to get and share information about leather stuff. Shit, there are thousands of places to sell stuff, but I personally, don't know of anywhere else like the LW. I am sure that there are some that are only interested in how much the can sell/how much money they can make through LW, but the most of the active members are just wanting to learn new things and to help other leatherworkers if they can. MattMatt's member # is 7517, and I'm not picking on him, but he really, like most of the newer people have not been members long enough to know what the LW is all about. Sure just about everybody on here wants to sell their work at a good decent price, but that's not the main reason for being a member here. I feel that if the only reason that a person is a member on this forum is to make money then they need to look other places and they will be better off and we, the people that have been on here just about every day will be better off with out them. With over 7500 members and only about 100 to 125 maybe dedicated and active where are all the other members at. Johanna if I'm wrong for what I said you can scold me and I'll take it, but I'll still be here anyway. Billy P

[Jordan]

Here, here, for the fellowship and free exchange of ideas from all those wonderful leather heads out there. And I like the photos, jokes and the smattering of sarcastic wit too. Life is too short to fret the small stuff.

[wildrose]

I think BillyP really hit the nail on the head.

When Johanna and I first were discussing this sort of board, it was because we were "fed up" with a certain large guild. Speaking for myself, I wanted somewhere that information was freely shared in a friendly environment, and also where people could talk about goings on in their lives and world as well. Selling stuff is obviously a bonus. Talking about HOW to sell stuff definitely went along with my initial desire for the board.

TomSwede hit a good point in talking about carrying work around with you. I always have a purse or dayplanner on me that I made. I wear a bracelet I've done too, so folks can see it's not all about big ticket items. And the show I was at yesterday, I also laid out my folio and Bible cover (folio I made 10 years ago, cover is about 3 months old), so people can see how things hold up, and what's available by custom order. I set them aside from my "for sale" items, but within easy eyesight and reach.

[rdb]

I like where this thread is going now. Nobody has to be told how to sell. There are some very successful leatherworkers out there, and they are members of this Forum. They know all the ins and outs to selling on the internet, and we see their knowledge right here.

A lot of people have banners. They have them for a reason. The more hits the better ...more higher google ratings equals the chance for more work. They are members to all sorts of Boards...knife, sheath, motorcycle, design, fashion, music. Their banners are everywhere.

But, I'm a firm believer in the fact that, if you make good stuff, they will find you. This Forum helps all of us to make a better leather product, which tells me that the more we stay together the stronger we all become.

The more you participate here, the more you learn. The more you learn, the better you become. The better you become, the more people will want to find you. Simple.

I learned a long time ago, you don't have to be a jerk to run a business. Keep it clean and honest, if nothing else, you'll be able to sleep nights. With a little karma, you'll be able to make a living.

[Mattmatt]

Glad there were some more posts after Billy. I felt like dad was on here. I don't want to work for corporate america for the next 50 years. I did join to learn. Grandpa taught me what he could, now I am on my own. RDB the only thing I ever sold was fundraisers door to door in school. I am going to college and plan on taking some marketing classes, but I don't think there going to teach me about forums and such. I have never owned a business and don't have the first clue about owning one. I try to not put myself in the gen X or Y or whatever you want to call us. But I do understand why some of my friends act the way they do. I have been amazed at what I have seen on this forum and the talent that is out there. Even though I have grandpas saddle and some of his tools I can see a different leather world besides the one he grew up in. Maybe there is room for us new people.

[DCKNIVES]

I too like this thread.As a knifemaker and leatherworker I am on alot of forums. It was one of these forums that Johanna contacted me through and asked that I come visit and do a tutorial on braiding. I was very happy when I came here as its a good place to learn and teach, as well as make new friends. I have done all three and hope to continue.This is one of the best forums I have been on, and that is the reason I visit almost everyday.Dave

[rdb]

I think the whole SEO concept is a false trail. I know for a fact, that the amount of time you need to spend on the internet promoting yourself, will actually leave you little time to make anything. It's a buyer/seller world. Buy cheap, mass advertise, sell little bits everywhere. That's what google does. Pennies they make all over the place adds up. But guess what, a craftsman cannot do that. If he hangs on a forum, he gets a little business, then he has to go make it. Two days later, he's fishing again...sheesh

The real money is the phone ringing off the hook. The real money is your customers returning for more goods. The real money is finding your niche, be it saddles, or toolrolls, or chaps, etc. You can even be a jack of all trades. That was what the neighborhood cobbler was. He fixed your shoes, sewed your jackets, and that's what made him valuable. The good thing about the economy now, is that we might just have work again. But instead of high ticket items, people will need repairs, and little things they can't find.

I think I'm on the verge of ranting now, so I'll just close and say that if you want to make a living with this craft, all you have to do is keep making things. The rest will work itself out.

[RunningRoan]

The ones I looked at were dedicated to posting adds. Free. If I understand the process (I am not an expert) Google crawls forums all the time. So the more forums your link shows up on the better your chance of being on the first page of a google search.

You are right!

Search engines rank your site on your content and keywords as well as how many links to your site it finds on OTHER relevent sites. So exchanging links with other relevent sites can help get your site listed higher in search results. For example, if one of your customers put a link to your site on their website and you returned the favor, a search engine will find it.

For website do-it-yourselfers (like me) you can Google "search engine optimization" or "SEO" and find lots of fairly simple things you can do to boost your site's search engine ranking. After you make those changes, be sure to resubmit your site to search engines. You can Google "submit website to search engines" to find out how. Keep in mind that it may take a while to see the benefit, just depends on how long it takes the various search engines to crawl back through your site.

[RunningRoan]

I think the whole SEO concept is a false trail. I know for a fact, that the amount of time you need to spend on the internet promoting yourself, will actually leave you little time to make anything.

This is very true. SEO is an ongoing battle and it requires regular maintenance. It's easy to get a little TOO wrapped up in it! There are lots of companies out there that will take care of your SEO needs for you, but they're not cheap. I chose to do it myself, but it took some research time to figure out the best way to tackle it and get a plan together.

For those who want to learn, you can Google "search engine optimization" or "SEO" or similar terms. There is a TON of info out there! Some of it is not as difficult as it sounds, it just takes some doin'.

If you'd rather not risk the frustration of learning about SEO (and who can blame you? ) I suggest you at least evaluate the existing text on your website. It should contain words (keywords) that are relevent to your business. Specific words like custom, leather, wallet, craftsman, etc should be in there somewhere. Think of keywords that your potential customers may search for and include them. Evaluate the title(s) of your page(s)...if the title of your homepage is "Welcome to my homepage!" it needs to be changed to include some keywords. It ain't the perfect SEO plan, but it's better than nothing!

[Davy]

G'day Mattmatt , I think i know what you mean about your friends being able to find a bracelet as quick as they can . My daughter is 19 and I was 19 once , I think . What you're saying is they want to go to a leather site , find a list of products click on bracelets then choose one they like , the quicker the better , correct ? And I think you were looking for somewhere here that you could go and look at either lists of makers and their products for sale , or just products for sale from all the makers selling stuff ? As for using forums to sell your stuff , that is a real touchy subject here from what i've been reading the last couple of days . As Mark (CollinMS) said "I am going to give you some information that will be considered highly controversial." I don't know if he realised how controversial that info would be . Theres obviously 2 schools of thought on it . I personally don't have a problem with some one who has an interest in , or has genuine input into forums , going ahead and using that particular forum to try and sell product . If the administators of that forum dont like it they'll let em know soon enough . But as for false testimonials being generated in forums just for the sake of a potential sale really is deceptive at best and fraudulent lowdown lying at worst . It really comes down to ethics , and a credibility issue , for anyone that wants to use that type of marketing ploy to eventually give their product , wether it's good or not , a bad name . Anyhow , opinions are like assholes , everbodys got one , and most of em stink , cept mine of course ! Back to leatherwork , if you're just starting out Mattmatt I dont think you could find a better place to learn from than here ! Have you got any photos of your work ? If you enjoy making stuff and would like to make some money from it , pay your dues , with time comes improvement and it wont be long before you are harvesting the fruits of your effort ! There must be room for newer people here too , cause I'm one of em Member #7,378 here , and if they will put up with me , they'll put up with anyone !!!!!!!!!! this place has the friendliest most experienced leather people from everywhere on the planet and you will certainly benefit from and enjoy your time here . All the best #7517 from #7378 .

[UKRay]

Sure just about everybody on here wants to sell their work at a good decent price, but that's not the main reason for being a member here. Billy P

I wholly agree with Billy on this point.

LW does help us sell our products but in an indirect way. It helps us to find and utilise marketing strategies that have been tried and tested by others and found to work. It shows us how top leatherworkers finish their work and (I speak personally here) helps us to improve the standard of our own work thus making it more saleable. Now that is quite an achievement. In addition it offers a sympathetic ear when things go horribly wrong, advice when you get stuck and global friendship if you care to accept it.

Unfortunately it takes a while before a newcomer recognises what is going on. They have trouble understanding why good people like Art would share their knowledge of sewing machines so freely, why superb carving advice is available from proven experts free of charge - they may also have trouble understanding TwinOak's sense of humor but maybe that is a different issue...

Although I definitely wouldn't want LW to exclude anyone and I hate the idea of rules and regulations, I believe newcomers could benefit greatly from sitting back and listening for a good while before throwing themselves into posting. I also wish they would spend a bit of time reading the older posts as these are full of invaluable advice and acquired wisdom.

As far as LW being a marketing tool goes, and leaving aside all the technical SEO stuff, I know that my cheapo blog website (check out the link below!!!!) which cost me nothing to build and costs me nothing to maintain has produced a very respectable amount of business this month. Not in direct sales as I don't have that facility, but in enquiries from people who liked what they saw. Now this is the bit that may surprise you, I don't advertise the blog anywhere and as far as I know I don't have any links from any other sites but this one. So where is the business coming from? Go figger!

Right now I am building an inventory with a view to trading next year so I don't need huge numbers of sales as that would get in the way of my primary objective - however, I'm not going to turn anything away as long as I still set the deadlines around here! IMHO, if you want to sell your stuff Matt, then begin small and learn everything you can, work out a sound business strategy, write a solid business plan, develop a good marketing strategy based on anything you can pick up and use and build your business to last. Most of all, enjoy what you do 'cos it is a whole lot easier working at something that is fun. Just my 2p worth and you are very welcome to ignore everything I said... <grin!>

[Davy]

Sorry Ray , I've gotta stick up for the newbies here . I've only been here about a month but started posting on my first day and couldnt wait to share what i know , learn from others and try to make a million bucks just from this site alone . No really , I think that billy spoke with good intentions , but to say the newer people havent been members long enough to know what LW is about , sounds a bit patronizing to me . I dont think it takes long at all to work out what this site is about , I figured it out the first day and I'm sure I'm not the only one . The people I've met since I've been here are without a doubt some of the most knowledgeable , friendly , helpful and funny people I've been fortunate enough to engage in social intercourse with , yourself included Ray . No doubt i may offend some with these comments , but theres no offence intended , like my brother once said , the only reason i was given a mouth was so i'd have something to take my foot out of , and like the great Al Bundy once said being a man is "being able to make mistakes and not care" The only reason I keep coming back is LW is great in its current format and everything seems to work fine just the way it is . LONG LIVE THE NEWBIES !!!!!!!!!!!!We'll be seasoned veterans before ya know it ! Ya just gotta love it here !

Cheers , Dave . PS - I might be green , but i'm not a cabbage .Everbody here was new at one time .

[Johanna]

BillyP- the next time I go to visit my family in Charleston I'm gonna look you up, get a tour of your shop, give your dogs head scratches and buy you a beer. You just summed up the whole point and purpose of LW. Thank you.

Johanna

I am sure that there are some that are only interested in how much the can sell/how much money they can make through LW, but the most of the active members are just wanting to learn new things and to help other leatherworkers if they can.

[UKRay]

name='Davy' date='Oct 13 2008, 02:12 PM' post='66091']

Sorry Ray , I've gotta stick up for the newbies here . I've only been here about a month but started posting on my first day and couldnt wait to share what i know , learn from others and try to make a million bucks just from this site alone . No really , I think that billy spoke with good intentions , but to say the newer people havent been members long enough to know what LW is about , sounds a bit patronizing to me . I dont think it takes long at all to work out what this site is about , I figured it out the first day and I'm sure I'm not the only one . The people I've met since I've been here are without a doubt some of the most knowledgeable , friendly , helpful and funny people I've been fortunate enough to engage in social intercourse with , yourself included Ray . No doubt i may offend some with these comments , but theres no offence intended , like my brother once said , the only reason i was given a mouth was so i'd have something to take my foot out of , and like the great Al Bundy once said being a man is "being able to make mistakes and not care" The only reason I keep coming back is LW is great in its current format and everything seems to work fine just the way it is . LONG LIVE THE NEWBIES !!!!!!!!!!!!We'll be seasoned veterans before ya know it ! Ya just gotta love it here ! Cheers , Dave . PS - I might be green , but i'm not a cabbage .Everbody here was new at one time .

It was not my intention to be patronising, Dave. Apologies if I offended anyone. I'll just crawl back under my rock...

[Luke Hatley]

BILLY P...............I'M WITH YOU ALL THE WAY. YOU SAID IT THE WAY I FEEL.

[Denise]

First off - Welcome Everyone!!!! - newbies or "experienced". I find it interesting watching the dynamics on the board. It is not uncommon that someone new joins, is all excited about being here because this IS a fun place to be, and posts a LOT right off. I did. Then they learn a bit more about how this place, as opposed to others, works and their posts may change a little - or not. Others join and are real quiet till they figure things out or just lurk always but can see the pictures. Either way, EVERYONE is welcome. That is one of the best things about LW.net - the friendly atmosphere (even TwinOaks' humor and the dog licked doughnuts).

The main goal of LW.net, as Johanna has often said, is the keep leatherworkers from needing day jobs. This place is about 2 1/2 years old. We have almost 3,300 real members (some of those other numbers are spam bots or something intenet related that I don't understand). So we are a really LARGE site that is still comparatively young and still growing. Right now LW is primarily a forum where people learn about leather. But it can be, and will be, a place that more people can find you to purchase your products. That part of the idea is still growing and the details have to be worked out. I don't see LW becoming a "store" - so more power to people who want to set that up - but an information source to buyers. So for right now, put up your links in your signature, since that seems to be the best way for search engines to find you. And link this site to yours. That lets more people find us too. Then let a moderator know if you want your stuff in the leatherworker's database Johanna and Kate have up their sleeve. Just know that the sleeve might be pretty long. Everything here is done by volunteers, so it takes time. After all, we all STILL have day jobs...

[Mattmatt]

On my way to class checked the forum. Someone asked me to send in an item, working on my first post. I think I will stay off the Marketing section of this forum, not sure why it is here if LW in not interested in making money. We all want to learn that is why I am going to class and have read about a hundred posts. I personally want to learn how to sell I think I can develop my work and sales at the same time. I will find another resource for that, Tom gave some good ideas. Gota go.

[Jordan]

This section like all the others is here to allow sharing of methods and ideas that have worked, or not. Gets back to the fundamentals, free exchange between peoples of like minds even if a bit warped at times