Chicago Screws Made Out Of Wood?

[DavidL]

Im looking for some chicago screws made out of wood w/ threads or w/ out threads. I haven't seen any available on the web. Id like to buy it pre made rather than a custom order from a woodworker.

[shtoink]

I have my doubts that you'll be able to find any, custom or otherwise.

The biggest reason is strength. At the sizes typical Chicago screws are available, even plastic will be stronger than wood. The grain, the grain direction, the size, the species of tree, and plenty of other factors will all contribute to what will ultimately be an item that will fail under ordinary use.

What might be worth looking into is having small wooden caps bonded to the top of the outside portion of the Chicago screw so that you still get the desired look without the risk of having your products seem poorly made.

Hopefully this helps.

[DavidL]

Would any one have any reason to think that it would be too costly for a woodworker to make a chicago screw out of wood or a company specializing in hardware like rivets and screws to make wooden chicago screws? Are the metal chicago screws made by a machine that cuts out the threads or are they made from a mold? I will contact some companies, but always like to run things through this forum first.

The Chicago screw is used mainly as aesthetics and would be placed on the corner of a leather wallet, not on a bag gusset or any highly stress areas. If it isn't possible I will try to add wooden caps to the chicago screws.

Thank you.

[Matt T]

Don't get hung up on having it be a screw then. Just make two pieces that can be glued together, male and female sides?

[DavidL]

I don't think a wood cap rivet can take the pressure of a setter, I could be wrong. If your talking about a chicago screw without the threads that could work.

[Matt T]

Yes, like a Chicago screw without the threads.

[shtoink]

I don't think a wood cap rivet can take the pressure of a setter, I could be wrong.

I was implying that the cap would be applied afterwards, but I must have overlooked saying that specifically.

It sounds like you are pretty set on going the route of having these, so my suggestion would be to see if you can find someone local that would be willing to make some up to your specifications and then test them. The other option is to see if you can make them yourself and test them. Either way, testing them would be very high on my "to do" list to make sure they did the job you needed without failing.

I could see them being used as an accent, but not much more. I won't claim being an expert on the topic, though I have some familiarity on pushing the boundaries with things that can be done with wood. I've made further refinements since those were made, but the big thing was lots of testing. It's possible that you find a way to make it work. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[papaw]

I think your best bet would be to go to a home center they have small dowel type hole plugs some with patterns cut them down to the size you want, use small drill bit drill hole through one into the other side countsink the through hole side and glue and screw together and fill countsunk area with sawdust and glue mixed together or matchimg wood puddy sand and stain.

P>S> You can glue the plug to a wooden dowel with contact glue to hold the plug to cut to size.

[Sona]

Well, to make some chicago screws out of woold would be more difficult for a woodworker than you think, as they are normally not set up for that stuff. Even if they are, it would take it´s time to produce them. You´d need some drills of this kind (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/5tlg-Satz-WS-Zapfenschneider-Scheibenschneider-15-20-25-30-35mm-/00/s/MTAyNFgxMDI0/z/MUoAAMXQPatTHDTO/$_12.JPG) in a very small dimension für the shaft. Normally they start at about 10-15mm but that might be the dimension of the cap you are looking for. If you don´t want to have some standart-beech-stuff they´d have to drill it out some other wood, after that drill the shaft (IF they have such kind of a drill, otherwise they´d have to cut it at a table saw or sth else), drill a hole fitting to the winding. After that they gotta drill the winding by hand, which might be a little risky for the inner winding because of the dimensions of the wood (might break), form the cap, sand it, apply some top coat/laquer/oil/whatever and hope that it fits.

MUCH easier and less expensive might be another option:

Just look at your hardwarestore for some wooden screwcaps like these (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/O-4AAOxyTjNSpL6O/$_12.JPG -just maybe with a thicker shaft) in the desired sort of wood and dimension. Cut the shaft to a little less than half of your leather thicknes (or one to a little less than the complete thicknes and cut the other one just off) sand it, apply some oil and let it dry over night. After that you punch a hole where you want to set it, take two of the caps, apply some white glue to the shaft and clamp it gently for at least an hour. Be sure not to use too much pressure to take care of the wooden surface. and instead of maybe 50bucks for a pair of wooden chicago-screws it costs you just about some peanuts.

Just my two cents Hope it helps.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Sona

[DavidL]

Well, to make some chicago screws out of woold would be more difficult for a woodworker than you think, as they are normally not set up for that stuff. Even if they are, it would take it´s time to produce them. You´d need some drills of this kind (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/5tlg-Satz-WS-Zapfenschneider-Scheibenschneider-15-20-25-30-35mm-/00/s/MTAyNFgxMDI0/z/MUoAAMXQPatTHDTO/$_12.JPG) in a very small dimension für the shaft. Normally they start at about 10-15mm but that might be the dimension of the cap you are looking for. If you don´t want to have some standart-beech-stuff they´d have to drill it out some other wood, after that drill the shaft (IF they have such kind of a drill, otherwise they´d have to cut it at a table saw or sth else), drill a hole fitting to the winding. After that they gotta drill the winding by hand, which might be a little risky for the inner winding because of the dimensions of the wood (might break), form the cap, sand it, apply some top coat/laquer/oil/whatever and hope that it fits.

MUCH easier and less expensive might be another option:

Just look at your hardwarestore for some wooden screwcaps like these (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/O-4AAOxyTjNSpL6O/$_12.JPG -just maybe with a thicker shaft) in the desired sort of wood and dimension. Cut the shaft to a little less than half of your leather thicknes (or one to a little less than the complete thicknes and cut the other one just off) sand it, apply some oil and let it dry over night. After that you punch a hole where you want to set it, take two of the caps, apply some white glue to the shaft and clamp it gently for at least an hour. Be sure not to use too much pressure to take care of the wooden surface. and instead of maybe 50bucks for a pair of wooden chicago-screws it costs you just about some peanuts.

Just my two cents Hope it helps.

That some great information.

The link won't open correctly. Are these the screwcaps you are referring to? If one end has a male end and another a female end and fits tight with contact cement it could hold up.

Mainly I want them to look unique w/ higher end exotic wood. How hard would it be for a wood worker to make a rounded cap with a simple rectangle for the male end and a female end on the other cap. Even if they were wittled and cut out with a chisel and sanded to form the cap that would work. I would pay 1.50 dollars per set for the labour alone plus material provided.

[Sona]

Mmm... well, if you got no buddy/friend who´s a woodworker or a carpenter nearby who thinks of this like a little advertisement you might getting problems getting these for 1,50 dollars. I don´t know anything about the wages/prices in the USA as I live in Germany, but over here you pay like 47,50 € (about 65$) for each hour of work a carpenter works for you (he get´s just a fraction of that, but let´s not talk about that ^^)
You might have a look around the web for those in different kinds of wood and maybe with a thicker base (they exist for sure... anywhere out there ^^). If you want a cap of 10mm you might find one with a base of 8mm would be perfect. And forget about that contact cement if you are glueing wood. Just use white/wood glue, D3 for normal issues, D4 for use outside (D4 is waterproof). Much cheaper and performs way better on wood than contact cement would do.
Also you don´t need any male and female ends. If you got a base of 8mm, punch an 8mm-hole, attach a cap-base (with the base sanded down to half of the leather thickness, maybe a little less so it won´t get loose) from each side to the hole and press it as I wrote. That´s it

[DavidL]

I think paying per part is a good way for the worker to get paid and for me aswell. If I was to pay for the hour I may get cheated because the worker decides to take unnecessary breaks and what not. For a hour straight of work a worker can turn out 30-40 sets for 40-50+ an hour depending on how fast he/she can make them.

For the caps im trying to visualize it. Do they look like the one down below and on the other cap there is a hole to fit the base/rod. If the base just sits flush with the other end wont they come apart after some use?

Also I never used a snap/ jiffey rivet other than a plain copper rivet so I have no reference. Shouldn't the part that extends from the cap be a 2-3mm longer than the thickness of the leather so that the other end has something to grab on to. Less stiff leather maybe can get away with base/rods that are half of the leather thickness?

[RavenAus]

David, you're talking out of your nethers. -

If I was to pay for the hour I may get cheated because the worker decides to take unnecessary breaks and what not.

So how does the woodworker charge for his time in setting up, trial and error, getting it right so you get a product that works? You want to add that to your dollar 50? You're cheating him, not the other way around.

If someone came to you and wanted something you have no pattern for, something you might need to buy new tools to make, and offered you only a bare wholesale price per part, would you take the job? How many hours work would you be prepared to put in unpaid so that customer could get his cheap option?

[DavidL]

There are always steps between the finish to the end. I did not state them so that is my fault. I will be using them for production work not personal use so they will have to be product tested.

I can only imagine this since I havent done any wood working, in my mind a simple rounded cap with a square post wont be that much of a challenge to an expert wood worker thats put his years in. The look I am going for is a wavy natural top that a wood worker widdles with a knife. It has opportunities to work around errors since no two will look the same. Issues may be that the ends cant match up properly, which may take some time to solve. That would require me to pick a person that has some type of experience in making these sort of thing and has woodworking knowledge and widdled before. Much like some one might come to me to make briefcases and I would have to spend 5 hours to get the technique down, the other person could contact someone who has knowledge and not pay me for the 5 hours of tinkering around. The way I came up with this scheme was that I use to be in school for graphic design and this was the way a designer would get a contract.

The first order will be a test batch of 10 sets of the item (all different posts) to test its durability and he will be paid a small amount. I will also pay for the wood which would be working with. After the decision of which style will work the best the wood for the item will be sent out and a deal will be made with a signed agreement.

[RavenAus]

I am a wood carver as well as a leather worker and I can tell you now you'd not get me for that job. Firstly, the wood you want is a very hard wood, right? Well, whittling means hand work, not machine. Whittling the very hard woods is a laborious task even with the sharpest of blades - the harder the wood, the harder the job. Most whittling is done in Lime or Basswood, which is (for a hardwood) easily carvable and resists splitting well. By the time you work up to Oak, you're more than doubling or trebling your workload to make the same item.

Your best bet would be to find someone who makes wooden pens with a micro lathe. These guys do not work for peanuts though and you'd be lucky to find anyone who would do that job for the money you want to pay.

Bottom line, you want custom, you pay custom. You want off the shelf components, you pay store/wholesale price.

[electrathon]

I will speak up too. I do a lot of woodwork. What you are looking for is likely going to be done on a lathe. If you buy thousands of these tooling would be made and the CNC machine will do about half of the work. You would have to do the final part by hand. On a smaller scale you would have way more hand work and way more time.

Personally, I would not make these for you for $15 each. I would have to think about it for $30 each. This is exactly the same as me offering you $8 to make me a wallet, as long as you pay the shipping. I can get a wallet off Amazon for that, so I am being more than fair with that price.

[DavidL]

On hardwoods or even bass wood the rounded portion of not a chicago screw, a regular domed cap should take 30 seconds? The finish product will not have perfectly smoove lines. A more natural shaved look is what im going for. Correct me if im wrong would the cap take more than 30 seconds for something as simple as a rounded edge once the shape is already established.

Lets say the cnc machine was to cut the male end, level the bottom and shape the cap leaving a bit of excess to work with. Then the worker will widdle the top to get the finish im looking for. Then the pay would be 25 cents because the time it would take to make a set without cnc machining is less by 6-8 times. Although if it was done by hand it would be better quality. If the price was 3 dollars for a set and machinery could be used to make the male and female end and a dremel or lathe to shape the cap and then wittled that is roughly 100 an hour for 30. At $1.5 it is still reasonable at 45 dollars an hour for 30sets.

8 dollars to make the equivalent of the item i was inquiring about would be making a card case that was one piece of leather folded over once and saddle stitched a 5 spi, no edge finishing, the stitches wouldnt have to be perfect. I could have my time down if I used a plastic stencil and it would take 5 minutes to get one done at the slowest. I was offering my price for 100 pieces. At 100 pieces for 8 dollars is 800 dollars. The time it would take for 100 to be done is 500 minutes which is 8 hours. 800/8 = 100 dollars an hour. In real time it may take more than 500 minutes for breaks and human error. Still it is 800 dollars for 1 hard days work or 2-4 light days.

If the item im selling that has the wooden screws on it sells well then every month a new order will come in. That is best case scenario and its well worth the risk and If i was a woodworker that had the proper skill to do this well I would jump at the chance.

Edited May 5, 2014 by DavidL

[LTC]

...couple of huge factors you're not figuring in...

1. Time spent programming the cnc for your project

2. Overhead of the cost of the cnc itself, tooling, etc...

my experience echos what others have said. i don't think you'll find anyone to touch this project for as little as you're willing to pay.

Edited May 5, 2014 by LTC

[shtoink]

I second everything that RavenAus and LTC have said.

If you haven't worked with the equipment and materials, it's very difficult to see just how much work goes into something like this.

CNC isn't mind reading, it has to be programmed. The materials need to be prepared into blanks first before anything else can even happen. You aren't going to have perfect dowels from raw chunks without added effort. A great deal of time is spent making sure that things go as planned, too. It's still very labor intensive, CNC just helps keep things consistent. To do all the steps by hand doesn't change much either.

Don't forget that when you start messing with exotic hard woods, they very in price wildly based on availability, species, and who's selling. Forget about trying to find someone to carve these things by hand from exotic hardwoods, not without boatloads of money to throw at it. By that point, you may as well be making them from precious metals, because that is the territory of money you'd be venturing into with that one due to labor costs alone. Some species are more forgiving than others, too. I've run across a few that don't like being spun too fast and will explode if you don't take that into consideration. Some others that need to have light cutting passes or they'll explode.

I still think that what you are asking for isn't a Chicago screw. It sounds a lot like the original thing that I suggested, which was a cap of some sort.

I highly recommend more research.

If you are still dead set on these things, you might need to find the required tools and tackle the learning curve to get it done your self, or see if you can't sweet talk someone local to you into doing up a few as a prototype to see if they'll even do the jab you want them to. This whole thing is a giant "what if" and it'd be a terrible thing to find out that you invested a ton of time and money into all this only to find out that it even work.

[DavidL]

...couple of huge factors you're not figuring in...

1. Time spent programming the cnc for your project

2. Overhead of the cost of the cnc itself, tooling, etc...

I have limited knowledge of cnc machines the only thing I know about it is that it is computer programmed( How it cuts, if the wood will burn, how clean the cut will be I do not know). I would assume some one with knowledge of a cnc can input the design of a screw cap into the computer free of charge if I was to make a order of 100 screws. Although I do not know if it can be done all in one step or if multiple steps are needed (flipping). I also have to look at other programmable machines that can make these caps. The work would be commisioned so the cnc will not be bought by me so maintance and other expenses are not on my behalf.

I could also go the other way and buy a 3d printing machine and print w/ wood filaments and the result would be a wooden cap set in 3 minutes without the workers cost and I could widdle the cap. At that point I would have to pay a fee to get someone to program that into my machine for 30-40 dollars or learn to do it myself. The end product is not as nice but is cost effective for a thousand screws to pay for the machine. After that the screws will cost 20 cents a set.

my experience echos what others have said. i don't think you'll find anyone to touch this project for as little as you're willing to pay.

Im offering to pay 150 dollars for 3.5 to 8 hours ($19-30 an hour) of work and the time for them to figure out the process which may be 1-2 hours.

300 dollars (labour) for 100 caps + cost of wood ($75) 375 is too high of an expense regular caps are 20 dollars.

Most here charge 15 dollars an hour leather tooling for their work Only reason I am paying 19-30 dollars an hour is because it requires a lot of skill and precision and is a custom order.

[LTC]

I would assume some one with knowledge of a cnc can input the design of a screw cap into the computer free of charge if I was to make a order of 100 screws.

except they won't do that...they will charge a "setup fee" for that...

The work would be commisioned so the cnc will not be bought by me so maintance and other expenses are not on my behalf.

that doesn't mean you're not going to be paying for those expenses. they are going to be included in the "overhead" i mentioned before...which is part of the expense you're going to find in getting these made...if you can find someone willing to do it.

CNC machines are very expensive and they usually command a fairly high hourly rate. the reason for that is that they're going to be tying up their machines doing your project where they could make a lot more than you're offering to pay working on projects for people willing to pay more.

I could also go the other way and buy a 3d printing machine and print w/ wood filaments and the result would be a wooden cap set in 3 minutes without the workers cost and I could widdle the cap. At that point I would have to pay a fee to get someone to program that into my machine for 30-40 dollars or learn to do it myself. The end product is not as nice but is cost effective for a thousand screws to pay for the machine. After that the screws will cost 20 cents a set.

3d printing may be the only plausible way for you to get these made...not sure where you're going to buy wood filament though.

Im offering to pay 150 dollars for 3.5 to 8 hours ($19-30 an hour) of work and the time for them to figure out the process which may be 1-2 hours.

300 dollars (labour) for 100 caps + cost of wood ($75) 375 is too high of an expense regular caps are 20 dollars.

Most here charge 15 dollars an hour leather tooling for their work Only reason I am paying 19-30 dollars an hour is because it requires a lot of skill and precision and is a custom order.

i highly doubt you'll find anyone to make these for that price for the reasons we've all stated previously. good luck with it though. Edited May 5, 2014 by LTC

[RavenAus]

3D printing with wood filaments? Nope, you're way out left field there. There are 2 things 3D printers can print with, and they are different types of plastic. You cannot get 3d printed wood.

I suggest you get some wood and a sharp knife. Learn something of the job you want before making any more errors. Assumptions and vague ideas of the process means you actually have no concept of what you're asking.

[Tree Reaper]

You can buy the dowel and caps or plugs, make a jig, drill the plugs, one partially and the other through for adjustment.

[Hi Im Joe]

3D printing with wood filaments? Nope, you're way out left field there. There are 2 things 3D printers can print with, and they are different types of plastic. You cannot get 3d printed wood.

I suggest you get some wood and a sharp knife. Learn something of the job you want before making any more errors. Assumptions and vague ideas of the process means you actually have no concept of what you're asking.

3D printing with wood filament. Quick google search. Maybe you should do some research before you call someone an idiot.

[RavenAus]

colorFabb woodfill is a new type of wood filament for 3D printing. It consists of 30% pinewood in a binder of colorFabb PLA/PHA

It's plastic with 30% pine. Not wood, certainly not hardwood, and definitely not something that can replicate the look of wood. Do your own research. Unless you want to get a commercial grade 3d printer you're pretty much stuck with either PLA or ABS. Fillers used can give different textures or colours but at the end of the day it's plastic. No grain, no features, just wood coloured plastic. It's like when you mix your sawdust with glue to fill a hole. It can cover it but it ain't wood, and something like he wants would have to be modeled in 3d before printing, so does he know 3d modeling? Is he willing to pay for that, when the end result is going to be wood filler in the shape he wants, not actual wood?

Somehow I doubt the result would be worth it.

Edited May 5, 2014 by RavenAus