Chicago Screws Made Out Of Wood?

[Sona]

Well, as a carpenter I actually see it the same way, raven does. That´s not wood.... not at all, even if it has some wooden ingredients. And even if it might have those ingredients it could never ever compete for the look of wood.... but that´s actually not the main point here.

David, I just get the feeling you might not realize, what you are talking about. Please don´t get me wrong: yes, there might be someone who does this sets for you... anywhere on this world, of course. And I really wish that you´ll find this person. But I still don´t get why you insist on this "male/femal" stuff, where you really don´t need it. And no, actually you are not offering 30 dollar/hour, you are offering 300 dollar for 100 caps, because you think they might be made on the fly. But if a carpenter, a woodcarver and other people who have some experience in woodworking tell you, that this is just not right, you seem to ignore or misunderstand it. I still don´t know how much you pay an american woodworker per hour, but as I said: over here you pay like 65 dollar (!) per hour. Nobody would love to do this job for that payment, even IF you were right.... There are just a lot of facts and factors you seem not to understand or see.....

As said before: I honestly hope you find your guy and I´d love to see the result. But I think you might have to admit some other prices than you expect.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Sona

[Hi Im Joe]

Well, as a carpenter I actually see it the same way, raven does. That´s not wood.... not at all, even if it has some wooden ingredients. And even if it might have those ingredients it could never ever compete for the look of wood.... but that´s actually not the main point here.

David, I just get the feeling you might not realize, what you are talking about. Please don´t get me wrong: yes, there might be someone who does this sets for you... anywhere on this world, of course. And I really wish that´ll you´ll find this person. But I still don´t get why you insist on this "male/femal" stuff, where you really don´t need it. And no, actually you are not offering 30 dollar/hour, you are offering 300 dollar for 100 caps, because you think they might be made on the fly. But if a carpenter, a woodcarver and other people who have some experience in woodworking tell you, that this is just not right, you seem to ignore or misunderstand it. I still don´t know how much you pay an american woodworker per hour, but as I said: over here you pay like 65 dollar (!) per hour. Nobody would love to do this job for that payment, even IF you were right.... There are just a lot of facts and factors you seem not to understand or see.....

As said before: I honestly hope you find your guy and I´d love to see the result. But I think you might have to admit some other prices than you expect.

I agree its not 100% wood. I get that. But it's a decent compromise. Especially for 3D printing.

[Macca]

This all seems similar to other discussions you had on leather article pricing, you are applying the same flawed cost + method to this.

You seriously need to think more of value pricing rather than mass production unit costs then applied to low volumes, it just doesn't work.

This is not volume business for anyone & will require a great deal of skill/knowledge.

Unless you have a friend who will turn these out as a favour, be prepared to pay a lot for the skill & knowledge of someone to take this on.

[DavidL]

yes, thank you sona I am aware its not real wood, however for a small item it is not a bad compromise. Surely it will be on par or above regular wooden screws made in china.

I also hope I will find the right person that will do this that will have proper power tools and hand tools already. The type of pay is called piece work. Made in Usa clothing the workers if they are paid by piece work would be 15 cents a shirt.

For the pay for woodworkers In Canada is 17 dollars and hour and can be upwards of 40 (I believe the average is 20-30). It can probably get up to 100 for specialized wood working. Certain painters in the downtown area of my city make 100 per hour painting houses. Crazy right?

[DavidL]

I have a vague idea of the skill it takes to make a cap every time. For those who are skilled at wood working is this not a beginner-intermediate task (with use of power tools?). In terms of leather working skill, making a bifold wallet nicely is the equivalent to making a wood cap?

The issue I have with having the caps made for say 4 dollars a set is that the price will have to be high and I'm unsure if the buyers are willing to spend that type of money. Upside is the screws will come out better as they will be entirely hand made and is a selling point.

A normal card wallet with metal rivets and stitching will be 35+ dollars retail.

To justify using higher quality goods the price would have to rise to 70+ since the cost would be 20 dollars for 4 screws.

If I'm able to sell at 300 dollars a wallet then the cost can be justifiable. That will be a task because my company at that point will have to be social proof and established.

[Sona]

I know what you mean David, but it is still the "you want custom - you pay custom"-thing. If your customers want a special eyecatcher, they gotta pay for it. I made a sheath (larp sword) for a guy for about 166,- dollars and he really thought about taking two buckles which were zinc diecasted and painted "like brass" rather than taking two brass-buckles just to save like what.... 9 dollars? That was the point where I just decided, to use solid brass or solid brass, nickel-plated. Since then I never mentioned the idea of this zinc-stuff anymore and I never had this problem again. And if I´d like to use solid silver stuff, I just need to finde people who wanna buy it. BUT, I can´t say "they won´t sell for this price, so I expect a solid brass buckle for 1,50, I mean, it´s just machine-made". It just doesn´t work like this. If you get some of this caps and find some customers: wonderfull. If you finde customers who´ll pay the higher price, even better. But if you want everything on lowcost, because you are afraid of loosing customers if it gets more pricey, you´ll follow the line of mass production and believe me: there are a lot of companies who have a quite better set up for that kind of buisness than you do!

And to the money-thing: I know that type of payment and I don´t like it. Maybe there are a lot people who work like that but it seems more like the time of industrialization to me than a proper kind of payment. Actually we are still human beeings and no machines.
I don´t know, whether it is crazy, ´cause we got a totally different money-system over here. And I am not sure, whether you mean that they get 17 to 100 bucks/hour, or you have to pay 17 to 100/hour, if you hire them. Over here that´s quite a difference!

[Macca]

you mention piece work, again, thats for volumes, significant volumes.

What you want made is a one off (even if you order 100), no chance anyone will take that on for piece work rates

Dont dismiss the skill required to produce something like this, its not a minimum wage skill !

You seem to be still aiming at low price, high volumes (which I think is nuts for hand made product).

If that really is your target market, why are you considering hand made wooden components ??

No-one will give a damn at that price, just use normal ones, they won't care.

[shtoink]

70% plastic and powdered pine is not wood...

...Ground down to powder and extruded like fiberboard (MDF).

I can confirm this... That is the link to the page from the company that makes this product. My first impression was "That looks a lot like MDF" as well.

DavidL, I am not, by any means, suggesting that your quest is an impossible one, merely that it has a high probability of being an ineffective one from a cost perspective. If you really need these to have a specific look, then you'll need to have control at every step of the process. The only way I know how to make that happen is to do it yourself. Whether that means, oversee someone under you doing the task or performing it with your own hands, the idea is the same.

New tooling will be how you achieve this. A new Sherline lathe isn't super cheap, but will certainly be a good investment if this is something you want to be able to do in-house to keep costs down. I personally recommend the 4000C package, as it comes with 85% of the stuff you might need if you don't plan on turning anything over 8 inches long. Add a self centering 4 jaw chuck and possibly a independent 4 jaw chuck to that list. You'll need to build up a list of steps to follow to have some repeatability, but thing like form tools that have the profile of the cap shape pre-ground can help speed the process up.

That 4000C package run just a smidge over $1100. When you factor in shipping, the extra chucks and anything else you added to that list, it'll very likely be less up-front cost than getting your first order of caps made with that added benefit of giving you 100% control at ever stage and the ability to change the shapes and materials with very little time, order-size, or cost restriction.

You asked for the opinion of others, but appeared unhappy with those opinions when they were given. The direction you head is completely up to you. I, personally, have asked opinions others in here before and even went against them. Sometimes the opinions were wrong, sometimes not. It all depends on just how strongly you feel you need to have this specific addition to your line of products. Will it be more cost effective to invest a great deal of time into having someone else make these caps and risk lost money if they turn out wrong anyway or to add an additional layer of steps your existing line? I can't answer that for you, which is why I kept saying that more research was needed. I think you would feel more secure with having control over the results and would recommend getting tooled up, but that is just my opinion.

[RavenAus]

I did suggest earlier that he try someone who turns pens, but warned they would not take the price he was after. I also suggested he actually try what he's saying is so easy.

DavidL, get a sharp knife, around 1" to 2" straight blade, get one of the pieces of wood you want and see how much effort it takes you to produce one pair of your screws. Then, when you have some real-world experience, come back and re-evaluate your position. I'm not the only woodworker who has offered their opinions but you have ignored all of us. TBH, there's no point in asking the question if you're not prepared to take on board the advice given.

You want exotic wood plugs. You're looking at reconstituted 70% plastic/30% wood (which you would still have to pay someone to 3d model for you, nobody works for free man.) You say you want the whittled look, not the perfect finish then you say you want them CNC milled (which would need programming which would not get done for free). You want them threaded, unthreaded, male, female...

I honestly think you are way beyond what your original brief was and you need to go back, cost things in a more realistic manner and see if this is ever going to be worth your time. People have suggested various ways in which you could do this and each has been dismissed. FYI, a bond with a good PVA wood glue between 2 flat surfaces is stronger than most of the woods you'd be gluing together - test it out! Get 2 pieces, flatten the ends, glue as per the instructions and try to break the join. You will break the wood first, not the join, if you've followed the instructions correctly.

[papaw]

How big is this going to be, I am a retired craftman and I can only guess how many you would have to make ( with all that would break) just to get 10 units. You have been given a lot of ideals I would try a couple and see. If not put a ad. in the paper and pay him by the hour to make them.