Saddle treemakers-sub topic

[Kevin]

But do any of these materials shrink and actually bind the wood together? The rawhide is not just there for a coating. I think if you want something new you will have to get rid of the wood and start with a totally blank slate, otherwise it just seems to be guilding the lilly. Some " English" saddles use nylon trees that are so dense you can drive a tack in and it will pop right back out. I've seen a lot of innovations over the years, some are good, but most just show why things have stayed pretty much the same for so long. That said, at least people are trying things and thinking. Kevin

[Hidemechanic]

JonW, welcome to the discusion..

Sounds like another related topic.

There was a guy in Calif. doing carbon graphite trees but he quit before I could get one. Don't know anything about his recipe.

I don't know if it matters if we get 50 or 100 posts on a thread, but I guess I'll go start a new one on fiberglass and see where it goes. GH

Edited January 31, 2008 by Hidemechanic

[jonwatsabaugh]

I'm not sure what you mean by the wood being bound together by the shrinking rawhide. You can't compress the wood to make it more dense. If you need the rawhide to hold the wood together you have a very inadequate structure. As I mentioned earlier, carefull selection of materials is important, especialy the core being the wood. Many of the custom makers prefer yellow poplar (as I do) for the bars because of these excellent qualities 1) outstanding nail and screw holding abilities 2) clean straight grain 3) when dry it is very dimentionally stable 4) it is easy to machine. Take an old saddle apart that has a rawhide covered tree and you will find that the rawhide has little to no grip on the nails and screws. When removing them though I can tell you what kind of wood is beneath the rawhide, good or bad. Wood will be the material of choice for a long long time for a list of reasons to long to list. Remember, we are basicly precision slulptors. We need a material we can sculpt.

Jon

[kseidel]

Jon, The wood structure of the tree is certainly criticall to a superior tree. However, The rawhide encases the wood in a "shrink to fit" housing. It is not only a protective covering, but increases the strength of the wood greatly. There is less flex in the rawhide than the wood preventing the wood from flexing to the breaking point. I believe the real strength of the tree is relative to the strength of the rawhide. I have never seen a tree broken that the rawhide did not fail first; either scored and separated, or lacing worn out allowing the hide to come loose. As long as the hide stays intact, it is nearly impossible to break a tree under reasonable circumstances. Same seems to hold true to fiberglass trees, only the fiberglass does not seem to take as much stress unless layered heavily.

As you mention, wood is a sculptable material, and reasonably available. I think that if a tree were to be made out of another solid material such as plastics or resins or a muriad of other modern materials, and then covered with a good rawhide covering, that we would also have an acceptable tree of comperable strength to wood.

Injection molding trees is not a new idea, but the only one to make it into production is the LaPorte tree. Using strong enough materials that were lightweight, and would hold nails, screws, and glue have been previously too costly for the industry. We cowboys that make up this industry are not chemists and chemists are not horsemen. A co-op effort might someday produce a modern tree that will replace the traditional wood tree.

Cost is another factor. Not many saddlemakers would be willing to pay double or triple for a "new" contemporary tree when they can buy the traditional for less.

We saddlemakers are unique individuals that like to customize our trees to a shape and fit that we think is best, and this sets us apart from our competitors. A molded tree cannot be changed. Yet another complication.

Many of you readers are from other industries and may have ideas worth pursuing.

Keith

[Hidemechanic]

LaPorte is a new name to me as of late, but Ralide has been making injection molded trees for many years. Does LaPorte use a differnt compound than Ralide? I am behind the curve a bit in the last few years. I'd like to know more about LaPorte.

As for the earlier injction molded trees, they were one that was advertized that you could run over them with a truck, but in my experience repairing them, they seem to get brittle with age. I've seen the bar ends shatter and seem especially to follow lines between nail and screw holes. I've also seen bars break and forks on endurence trees that have less material in that area. Just my thoughts on injction molded trees in the past.GH

[kseidel]

Laporte saddle trees are very different in compound than ralide. Much stronger and more rigid. They are available with a cable rigging molded into them. I don't have any experience building on them nor have I had occasion to repair one. Mark Howes from Double H Ranch saddle shop in Fort Collins CO developed the line and one of his sons is the mfgr. Ph # 970-482-6229.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Last summer I had a fellow call me to ask my opinion on La Porte trees and cable rigging. I told him straight up that I'm a traditionalist and would probably never use anything but a handmade rawhide covered wood tree. I have used trees from some of the finest treemakers around such as Rod and Denise from this forum, Rick Reed, Warren Wright, and Glenn Christman. When I first started making saddles I was using trees from Bowden, Superior, and Hercules and it wasn't until I saw a fine handmade tree that the differences in quality and fit became apparent.

This fellow came out to visit me a few weeks later and brought a couple of La Porte trees to show me and perhaps change my perception about them a bit. I brought out a couple of nice handmade Wade trees so we could compare them side to side. Here is what I concluded... The material they are made from is infinitly better than the old Ralide trees that I had seen broken so often. The groundseat has an acceptable shape that was alot better than I thought it would be. Compared to the trees I am used to, the bars had substantially less surface area in both length and depth and for guys really using the saddles hard, that would be of concern to me. The trees are limited in the sense that I can't ask them to shave a corner off a cantle or make the fork thinner or fuller or move the widest point of a swell up or down... this is something very important to me. Something I found interesting was that the tree this fellow showed me had some serious sanding marks on the bottom side of the bars and when I asked about them he said he had taken a belt sander to the bars to do some micro fitting for one of his own horses. I'm not an advocate of fitting a single horse in that sense, but found it interesting that this could be done to the tree without compromising it's integrity. The only other thing about it was it had cable rigging which I am not a fan of.

My overall conclusion about the tree was that there is definitly a place in the saddle world for them as a cost effective alternative. That said, I'd still never use one... good handmade trees fit horses well, are available in almost any shape or form, have longevity, and even though they may cost more and take longer to get they are what my customers want.

[jonwatsabaugh]

There may be a little misconception about the trees I build. The wooden framework is strictly a traditionally hand made, fully customizable tree built to your specs with a non-traditional outer reinforcement covering. I learned the basics from Kieth Gertch as did Rick Reed and Bill Bean. As for the wood fracturing and breaking apart within the rawhide I've seen this happen on several different occasions. As of late Luke Jones, a well known cutting and reining trainer in my area, brought a saddle into my shop to replace a broken tree. The fork, cantle, and both bars were all broke completely in half but the rawhide was completely in tact. Granted, this was a pretty bad wreck, but my point is that the wood frame was a totally inferior structure. I got to stick to my guns on the importance of each step in the saddle tree building process. All the custom makers I know of take great care in building a superior wood structure. By the way, my trees will sell for $465, not out of line for a handmade tree.

Jon

[jwwright]

Jon, I have met Luke a couple of times, and competed with / against him at the World show. Good hand. I would like to visit with you about your trees. You can message me through this board with your contact info if you care to do so. Thanks.

[kseidel]

Jon, Keith Gertsch has made most of my trees for about 25 years. I would be interested to know more about the trees you are making. Send me a personal message with more info. Keith

[Hidemechanic]

JonW, you have any pics of your trees?GH

[jonwatsabaugh]

I've got a couple of pictures of my rawhide covered trees I'll up load if I can figure this deal out. Hope it works. All I have is dial-up...it's brutally slow. I'm getting ready to make some glass encased trees in the next couple of weeks, I'll get a better camera and take some sharper pics.

Jon

[okiwen]

I've got a couple of pictures of my rawhide covered trees I'll up load if I can figure this deal out. Hope it works. All I have is dial-up...it's brutally slow. I'm getting ready to make some glass encased trees in the next couple of weeks, I'll get a better camera and take some sharper pics.

Jon

Very nice looking tree. I look forward to seeing the glassed ones and reading feedback.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

This has been a very interesting topic to re-read. Here are a couple of thoughts that maybe haven’t been put out or maybe just stated in a different way.

Is anything “better” than good quality wood and rawhide needed for a saddle tree? Good, knot free wood is very difficult to break, yet can be carved to any shape desired. Rawhide, as a natural material, has a strength and resiliency that would be very difficult to duplicate with synthetics. We have driven over one of our trees with our rawhide to see what would happen. A half ton did nothing. It didn’t break. The front end of a five ton loaded moving truck flattened the bars to the ground. We heard it crack. We saw it flatten. We picked it up afterward and the bottom edge of the bars had been scuffed on the concrete all the way along. But the bars were their normal shape again and we could not tell it had been broken. No give, no squeaks, no nothing. Only a couple of popped stitches on the rawhide under the gullet. We soaked the rawhide off (which took over a week to get it soft enough to pry away a little around the edges, and this was unvarnished rawhide) to see what had happened underneath it. Both bars had split longitudinally – three times on one bar, twice on the other – through the screw holes where they attached to the fork where the wood is the thinnest. The cracks didn’t extend all the way down the bar. This is why we use the wood - yellow poplar in the bars - that we do. It splits lengthwise, not across the grain. I can’t see this type of result from using other materials.

A fair percentage of our trees go to working cowboys who use them day in and day out. Some of them now have up to 12 years on them, which is hopefully only a small percentage of their lifespan. And we have a collection of “wreck” stories as well, yet only one where the owner figured he had “cracked a sidebar”. (Not comfortable roping in it, he sold the saddle to someone who didn’t rope…) So are good quality wood and rawhide all you need to withstand the use, abuse, and occasional adventure that a saddle tree endures? Our answer would be yes.

Then why do people constantly look for something else? A couple of thoughts:

1.) Decreased cost and time in production. Carving a wood tree is a longer process than using a mold to shape a synthetic substance. It takes a few hours to rawhide a tree, then a couple of weeks babysitting them, pounding seams and resetting nails a couple times a day till they are dry. Then a couple coats of varnish. That means time and labour costs. All the alternatives that have ever been used, to our knowledge, are faster and less expensive. That is a consideration in business, and a less expensive tree has a place in the market.

2.) Poor quality workmanship and materials in some wood and rawhide trees currently being produced. A good wood and fiberglass tree will be stronger than a knotty pine and chicken skin rawhide job any day, and if that is the quality of tree you are experienced with, it makes sense to go for something different. In the same way that the newer synthetics can’t be judged by the quality of older, poorly made ones, neither can wood and rawhide as a whole be judged on the quality of large factory production run trees.

Ultimately it comes down to the saddle maker’s decision on what he wants to put his name on. And that is why we not only use the types of materials we use, but use the quality of materials we use. We are comfortable putting our name on these trees, and wouldn’t be on other types of trees. Other people with different markets or different ideas may choose something different. Is one “right” and one “wrong”? No. But it is always good to know why we are doing what we are doing, and honestly recognize the drawbacks as well as the strengths of our choice.

As an aside, it is really good to read the differing ideas from so many saddle makers coming from different viewpoints, and yet being discussed in reasonable tones. There has always been a lot of competition in the saddle market, which leads to “strong people with strong opinions” at times. It is great to have a forum like this that is designed for people to share ideas, learn and discuss differences in a friendly atmosphere. It benefits us all and hurts no one. Can’t get better than that.

[ArtS]

Well said. I am learning so much here! Thanks to all of you.

ArtS

This has been a very interesting topic to re-read. Here are a couple of thoughts that maybe haven’t been put out or maybe just stated in a different way.

Is anything “better” than good quality wood and rawhide needed for a saddle tree? Good, knot free wood is very difficult to break, yet can be carved to any shape desired. Rawhide, as a natural material, has a strength and resiliency that would be very difficult to duplicate with synthetics. We have driven over one of our trees with our rawhide to see what would happen. A half ton did nothing. It didn’t break. The front end of a five ton loaded moving truck flattened the bars to the ground. We heard it crack. We saw it flatten. We picked it up afterward and the bottom edge of the bars had been scuffed on the concrete all the way along. But the bars were their normal shape again and we could not tell it had been broken. No give, no squeaks, no nothing. Only a couple of popped stitches on the rawhide under the gullet. We soaked the rawhide off (which took over a week to get it soft enough to pry away a little around the edges, and this was unvarnished rawhide) to see what had happened underneath it. Both bars had split longitudinally – three times on one bar, twice on the other – through the screw holes where they attached to the fork where the wood is the thinnest. The cracks didn’t extend all the way down the bar. This is why we use the wood - yellow poplar in the bars - that we do. It splits lengthwise, not across the grain. I can’t see this type of result from using other materials.

A fair percentage of our trees go to working cowboys who use them day in and day out. Some of them now have up to 12 years on them, which is hopefully only a small percentage of their lifespan. And we have a collection of “wreck” stories as well, yet only one where the owner figured he had “cracked a sidebar”. (Not comfortable roping in it, he sold the saddle to someone who didn’t rope…) So are good quality wood and rawhide all you need to withstand the use, abuse, and occasional adventure that a saddle tree endures? Our answer would be yes.

Then why do people constantly look for something else? A couple of thoughts:

1.) Decreased cost and time in production. Carving a wood tree is a longer process than using a mold to shape a synthetic substance. It takes a few hours to rawhide a tree, then a couple of weeks babysitting them, pounding seams and resetting nails a couple times a day till they are dry. Then a couple coats of varnish. That means time and labour costs. All the alternatives that have ever been used, to our knowledge, are faster and less expensive. That is a consideration in business, and a less expensive tree has a place in the market.

2.) Poor quality workmanship and materials in some wood and rawhide trees currently being produced. A good wood and fiberglass tree will be stronger than a knotty pine and chicken skin rawhide job any day, and if that is the quality of tree you are experienced with, it makes sense to go for something different. In the same way that the newer synthetics can’t be judged by the quality of older, poorly made ones, neither can wood and rawhide as a whole be judged on the quality of large factory production run trees.

Ultimately it comes down to the saddle maker’s decision on what he wants to put his name on. And that is why we not only use the types of materials we use, but use the quality of materials we use. We are comfortable putting our name on these trees, and wouldn’t be on other types of trees. Other people with different markets or different ideas may choose something different. Is one “right” and one “wrong”? No. But it is always good to know why we are doing what we are doing, and honestly recognize the drawbacks as well as the strengths of our choice.

As an aside, it is really good to read the differing ideas from so many saddle makers coming from different viewpoints, and yet being discussed in reasonable tones. There has always been a lot of competition in the saddle market, which leads to “strong people with strong opinions” at times. It is great to have a forum like this that is designed for people to share ideas, learn and discuss differences in a friendly atmosphere. It benefits us all and hurts no one. Can’t get better than that.

[AndyKnight]

Ihaven't visited this site for a while so just found this topic. It has been a good read.

My opiniion for what it is worth. It may be different next week

Good quality wood and rawhide is the best combination for me.

That being said I am not stuck on it. I don't mind trying dfferent things as I believe that the only way to improve is to remain open and to try them. I also cordinate saddles being made with trees covered with spray on "box liner". This being a price point thing.

I built a sail boat a few years ago and that introduced me to the world of epoxies and different fiberglass cloths.

I now use epoxy exclusively for gluing my trees together.

I have covered one tree of mine with epoxy and fiberglass and also put in a cable rigging in it.! Not very traditional but it made an awsome lightweight saddle.

For me it was a worse mess than slimey rawhide!!!

One of my issues with fiberglass is that my glues don't stick to it as well..and

it seemed to me that to make it as strong as heavy rawhide you would need either multiple layers or very heavy cloth and multiplke coating of epoxy.

Got to get to work

Andy

[Chi Stockyrd Saddle Tree]

Why do we as a group of crafters look for better tools? Why do we put limits on the inventions of tomorrow? What benefits can come from new age technologies? Well: lighter trees = lighter saddles, composite materials used for space to withstand gravitational forces and extreme temperatures= stronger more durable tree, the ability to allow ourselves to effectively use our time to create a product of which there is great demand for= cash in our pockets sooner. A working cowboy needs a saddle to work in today! Not tomorrow, not two weeks form now, not two years from now. Today! We place a bind on these working cowboys when we limit ourselves to Archaic Ideals. As an Industry only two hundred years old, there is too little tradition. Knifes have changed. Machine's have changed that help us make the trees, make the saddles even. Tools of the "tradition" have changed in design over the years to better the industry. Riggings have had several changes from who was making them from different parts of the country. Braiding and twisting methods have been refined. Ropes are poly based rather than grass. The use of alloys in all metals to change screws and nails and hardware. Why does this one aspect of saddle making remain unchanged? Or have so much push against to remain the same? Restrictions on tanneries make it harder for quality rawhide and leather to be made. It's to thin and drops off at the edges and there are smaller hides. Nothing is coming from mature hides. Forest restrictions are limiting the cutting of quality woods. What next, are we going to dip Bass wood or even Balsa in "good" epoxy to make it stronger because somebody still wants a wood tree? Why does anybody want to better their materials or their goods and products? Why don't we all stay in the Dark Ages and keep making 50Lbs saddles. Let's refuse to buy new knifes, hell, let's refuse to even sharpen them. Now, there is a place for all things. There is a place for Good, and I mean good, level, properly made wood/rawhide trees and that is along side composite trees. WE, we, all have seen what each of the trees can do and that each match up to each other. There are poorly made wood and rawhides trees out there that are mishapped and look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick. There is a bad name to composite trees because the technologies weren't being used by those who actually ride for a living. There are bad and good in both of these worlds. You go with what you know works and what can keep up with the job. And you go with the guys who can create the trees you want. AND you move forward, because that's where world goes. Forward for a better way of life and working and building and use of our time as leather crafters.