Saddle treemakers-sub topic

[ArtS]

I also saw that on ebay. It must be a pretty thin layer. How can you be sure that it really has the liner under the rawhide. Why is his rawhide a dark brown? I can't remember ever seeing a tree covered in dark rawhide like that. Not that I've seen a lot of trees.

Another question I have is how can a novice (like myself) know if a tree maker is good or not? What should we look for?

ArtS

[ArtS]

I emailed that guy in GA and he just emailed me back with an answer. He orders the trees and all he does is cover them in rawhide. That explains the rawhide over Line-X.

ArtS

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Art,

When rawhide is dry you can often see right through it, especially after it is varnished, even on thick hides. So the colour you are seeing is the dark Line-X. And since it dried in such a short time, it must be a pretty thin hide. If he ordered a tree, rawhided it, and will sell it for less than $100.00, where is he getting these trees from and what is under the Line-X?

[Hidemechanic]

ArtS, sounds like another go topic.GH

[kseidel]

I've been watching this topic and waiting for someone to introduce fiberglass covering as comparison. We all had the same skeptical attitude about fiberglass several years ago when it first became popular and now it is a standard acceptable covering in the saddle business. Some are even rivaling the handmade trees for price. How does the bed liner material compare with fiberglass? Many treemakers use fiberglass in conjunction with rawhide.... Keith

[barra]

I have a question regarding fibreglass covered trees. Once a tree is covered in Fibreglass, How do you tack/nail to the tree.

Barra

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Curious to see what others say about fiberglass. It has been around for years, but is it a “standard acceptable covering”? Using both fiberglass and rawhide, in our opinion, falls into Bruce’s paranoia category unless you are unsure of the quality of the a fiberglass, b rawhide c wood or d construction that you are using.

[David Genadek]

I work with a yacht designer on my 3d models for my trees so he is extremely up on composite materials. We are playing with the idea of doing some fiberglass or carbon fiber trees. I am convinced that if we use the proper resin with the proper fabric it will be as good perhaps better than the rawhide. I'm not sure if there will be any cost advantage or wieght advantage at this point.

Much of what is being done in the market is not done properly so it is hard to say. It used to be that you would cover a tree in canvas to make a cheap tree I suppose that gave way to fiberglass.

A few years ago I did a project with the University of Winona which has one of the top composite material programs in the US. We took two groups of students and they had to design a saddle tree for ther senior project. From that I learned a lot about composite materials. You could build a balsa wood tree with carbon fiber that would be ungodly strong. It would probable cost more than a traditional tree to produce though.

David Genadek

[kseidel]

Being a "traditionalist" saddlemaker, I have little experience with fiberglass trees. It is difficult to nail and screw into without doing damage to the fiberglass. It seems to crack and star much like a rock hitting a windshield. It is fairly heavy, nearly as heavy as rawhide. Some trees have a wrap of fiberglass around the bars over the rawhide, which would help protect the rawhide lace from wearing under the stirrup leathers. May also add some strength to a thin or narrow bar. Have also seen rawhide trees wrapped with fiberglass around the swell thru the gullet and horn area... also to add strength for thin swells under the horn. I don"t know how much strength this adds. Boat hulls are made from layered fiberglass over very little structure, leaving only the fiberglass to take the stresses of the water. Fiberglass trees are usually much less expensive than rawhide trees, many of which the ground seat is included.

Carbon fiber trees, injection molded trees, laminated rubber bars, all are attempts to improve on rawhide covered wood trees. Making trees from materials other than wood and rawhide would remove the variable of possible inconsistent or inferior materials. Also reduce the amount of human error.

Another part of the equation not yet discussed is the ideals we all have about what fits best and what does not work for us and our customers. Every treemaker and every saddlemaker has their own philosophy of proper shape and fit for both horse and rider.

We do not have a good "apprenticeship" practice in our industry, and many beginning saddlemakers as well as tree makers lack the experience necessary to address problems and avoid serious errors. Our customers become test subjects for our experiments; most of which would be unnecessary with proper training and experience woring under a master. Coupled with the need to be competitive, it is difficult for an inexperienced person to be successful in this business. Keith

[jonwatsabaugh]

Well I guess it's time for me to throw my hat in the ring and add my two cents worth. My name is Jon Watsabaugh from Des Moines, Iowa. I've been building saddles now for about 11 years, full time about 7. Four years ago I learned the basics of building handmade trees. From that basic introduction I was able to go forward with the R & D and develop the knowledge and skill necessary to build a premium tree. When I first started building saddles, I knew I wanted to someday build trees also. This aspect of our craft was as fascinating if not more so than saddle building to me. Over the past year I've decided to make the transition from building primarily saddles to saddle trees. I'm in the process of adding more woodworking equipment for production purposes and won't be in full production till about April. Now,I say all of that to say what follows.

Over the past four years I've sewn a lot of rawhide, have even enjoyed learning this skill, but always knew there were other materials (man made) that were stronger and more durable. I fought the urge to even investigate. Why? Tradition. Tradition runs strong and true in this culture and it should. Rawhide will always keep it's place in our craft and I will never criticize any of the handmade makers or debate it's merit. I, on the other hand, have chosen a different path. Any structure is only as good as it's weakest link. In the aerospace industry, careful science is applied to each structural component. Composites (fiberglass, carbon fiber, arimids) are extensively used in key areas where structural integrity is vitally important. There are literally hundreds of cloth types and matrixes available, as well as a miriad of processes to use them. You have to be willing to go beyond the "hardware store" products and find and experiment with materials and application techniques to yield superior performance, all the time keeping your saddle maker in mind. These products can be made very thin and extraordinarily strong and durable. Using the right matrix (resins) will facilitate driving nails easily and will not "star" or crack the composite. Even if it does, structural integrity will not be compromised because of the design nature of the weave in the cloth. After much experimentation, I have decided fiberglass is for me.

Now, briefly on the subject of pick-up bed liner. This stuff is a polyurea product. This industry is huge and I mean huge. It goes way way beyond pick-up bed liners and these products are really interesting. As with composites the formulations are nearly endless. As a key structural component though, I think it falls short. However as a final covering I know it ads many benefits. Incredible shock absorption characteristics are added as well as having a self-healing affect when nails are pulled making it water proof. The visual affect however is a big drawback to the traditionalist. I have found a company willing to formulate a polyurea for me sans pigmentation. The final look is somewhat translucent with an amber tint. Looks pretty good! So my choice for a topical finish is polyurea. The plural component system and impingement gun are a pretty hefty investment at $11,000, but I think the value added to my product is worth it.

The finished tree becomes one unitized construction. No voids between product layers, each product used compliments the other, and finally a very nice finish void of humps and bumps making your saddle building a more joyful task.

In conjuction with my production, it's always been a dream of mine to teach my skills to others. Maybe Saddle Tree University? More on that later.

In conclusion, I would like to offer my sincere thanks to the creators and moderators of this sight. Also hats off to people like Rod and Denise, Steve Mason, Kieth Seidel,Jim Redding and the like for their willingness to share their knowledge and skill and take the time to do so!

Jon