Saddle treemakers-sub topic

[Hidemechanic]

JonW, you have any pics of your trees?GH

[jonwatsabaugh]

I've got a couple of pictures of my rawhide covered trees I'll up load if I can figure this deal out. Hope it works. All I have is dial-up...it's brutally slow. I'm getting ready to make some glass encased trees in the next couple of weeks, I'll get a better camera and take some sharper pics.

Jon

[okiwen]

I've got a couple of pictures of my rawhide covered trees I'll up load if I can figure this deal out. Hope it works. All I have is dial-up...it's brutally slow. I'm getting ready to make some glass encased trees in the next couple of weeks, I'll get a better camera and take some sharper pics.

Jon

Very nice looking tree. I look forward to seeing the glassed ones and reading feedback.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

This has been a very interesting topic to re-read. Here are a couple of thoughts that maybe haven’t been put out or maybe just stated in a different way.

Is anything “better” than good quality wood and rawhide needed for a saddle tree? Good, knot free wood is very difficult to break, yet can be carved to any shape desired. Rawhide, as a natural material, has a strength and resiliency that would be very difficult to duplicate with synthetics. We have driven over one of our trees with our rawhide to see what would happen. A half ton did nothing. It didn’t break. The front end of a five ton loaded moving truck flattened the bars to the ground. We heard it crack. We saw it flatten. We picked it up afterward and the bottom edge of the bars had been scuffed on the concrete all the way along. But the bars were their normal shape again and we could not tell it had been broken. No give, no squeaks, no nothing. Only a couple of popped stitches on the rawhide under the gullet. We soaked the rawhide off (which took over a week to get it soft enough to pry away a little around the edges, and this was unvarnished rawhide) to see what had happened underneath it. Both bars had split longitudinally – three times on one bar, twice on the other – through the screw holes where they attached to the fork where the wood is the thinnest. The cracks didn’t extend all the way down the bar. This is why we use the wood - yellow poplar in the bars - that we do. It splits lengthwise, not across the grain. I can’t see this type of result from using other materials.

A fair percentage of our trees go to working cowboys who use them day in and day out. Some of them now have up to 12 years on them, which is hopefully only a small percentage of their lifespan. And we have a collection of “wreck” stories as well, yet only one where the owner figured he had “cracked a sidebar”. (Not comfortable roping in it, he sold the saddle to someone who didn’t rope…) So are good quality wood and rawhide all you need to withstand the use, abuse, and occasional adventure that a saddle tree endures? Our answer would be yes.

Then why do people constantly look for something else? A couple of thoughts:

1.) Decreased cost and time in production. Carving a wood tree is a longer process than using a mold to shape a synthetic substance. It takes a few hours to rawhide a tree, then a couple of weeks babysitting them, pounding seams and resetting nails a couple times a day till they are dry. Then a couple coats of varnish. That means time and labour costs. All the alternatives that have ever been used, to our knowledge, are faster and less expensive. That is a consideration in business, and a less expensive tree has a place in the market.

2.) Poor quality workmanship and materials in some wood and rawhide trees currently being produced. A good wood and fiberglass tree will be stronger than a knotty pine and chicken skin rawhide job any day, and if that is the quality of tree you are experienced with, it makes sense to go for something different. In the same way that the newer synthetics can’t be judged by the quality of older, poorly made ones, neither can wood and rawhide as a whole be judged on the quality of large factory production run trees.

Ultimately it comes down to the saddle maker’s decision on what he wants to put his name on. And that is why we not only use the types of materials we use, but use the quality of materials we use. We are comfortable putting our name on these trees, and wouldn’t be on other types of trees. Other people with different markets or different ideas may choose something different. Is one “right” and one “wrong”? No. But it is always good to know why we are doing what we are doing, and honestly recognize the drawbacks as well as the strengths of our choice.

As an aside, it is really good to read the differing ideas from so many saddle makers coming from different viewpoints, and yet being discussed in reasonable tones. There has always been a lot of competition in the saddle market, which leads to “strong people with strong opinions” at times. It is great to have a forum like this that is designed for people to share ideas, learn and discuss differences in a friendly atmosphere. It benefits us all and hurts no one. Can’t get better than that.

[ArtS]

Well said. I am learning so much here! Thanks to all of you.

ArtS

This has been a very interesting topic to re-read. Here are a couple of thoughts that maybe haven’t been put out or maybe just stated in a different way.

Is anything “better” than good quality wood and rawhide needed for a saddle tree? Good, knot free wood is very difficult to break, yet can be carved to any shape desired. Rawhide, as a natural material, has a strength and resiliency that would be very difficult to duplicate with synthetics. We have driven over one of our trees with our rawhide to see what would happen. A half ton did nothing. It didn’t break. The front end of a five ton loaded moving truck flattened the bars to the ground. We heard it crack. We saw it flatten. We picked it up afterward and the bottom edge of the bars had been scuffed on the concrete all the way along. But the bars were their normal shape again and we could not tell it had been broken. No give, no squeaks, no nothing. Only a couple of popped stitches on the rawhide under the gullet. We soaked the rawhide off (which took over a week to get it soft enough to pry away a little around the edges, and this was unvarnished rawhide) to see what had happened underneath it. Both bars had split longitudinally – three times on one bar, twice on the other – through the screw holes where they attached to the fork where the wood is the thinnest. The cracks didn’t extend all the way down the bar. This is why we use the wood - yellow poplar in the bars - that we do. It splits lengthwise, not across the grain. I can’t see this type of result from using other materials.

A fair percentage of our trees go to working cowboys who use them day in and day out. Some of them now have up to 12 years on them, which is hopefully only a small percentage of their lifespan. And we have a collection of “wreck” stories as well, yet only one where the owner figured he had “cracked a sidebar”. (Not comfortable roping in it, he sold the saddle to someone who didn’t rope…) So are good quality wood and rawhide all you need to withstand the use, abuse, and occasional adventure that a saddle tree endures? Our answer would be yes.

Then why do people constantly look for something else? A couple of thoughts:

1.) Decreased cost and time in production. Carving a wood tree is a longer process than using a mold to shape a synthetic substance. It takes a few hours to rawhide a tree, then a couple of weeks babysitting them, pounding seams and resetting nails a couple times a day till they are dry. Then a couple coats of varnish. That means time and labour costs. All the alternatives that have ever been used, to our knowledge, are faster and less expensive. That is a consideration in business, and a less expensive tree has a place in the market.

2.) Poor quality workmanship and materials in some wood and rawhide trees currently being produced. A good wood and fiberglass tree will be stronger than a knotty pine and chicken skin rawhide job any day, and if that is the quality of tree you are experienced with, it makes sense to go for something different. In the same way that the newer synthetics can’t be judged by the quality of older, poorly made ones, neither can wood and rawhide as a whole be judged on the quality of large factory production run trees.

Ultimately it comes down to the saddle maker’s decision on what he wants to put his name on. And that is why we not only use the types of materials we use, but use the quality of materials we use. We are comfortable putting our name on these trees, and wouldn’t be on other types of trees. Other people with different markets or different ideas may choose something different. Is one “right” and one “wrong”? No. But it is always good to know why we are doing what we are doing, and honestly recognize the drawbacks as well as the strengths of our choice.

As an aside, it is really good to read the differing ideas from so many saddle makers coming from different viewpoints, and yet being discussed in reasonable tones. There has always been a lot of competition in the saddle market, which leads to “strong people with strong opinions” at times. It is great to have a forum like this that is designed for people to share ideas, learn and discuss differences in a friendly atmosphere. It benefits us all and hurts no one. Can’t get better than that.

[AndyKnight]

Ihaven't visited this site for a while so just found this topic. It has been a good read.

My opiniion for what it is worth. It may be different next week

Good quality wood and rawhide is the best combination for me.

That being said I am not stuck on it. I don't mind trying dfferent things as I believe that the only way to improve is to remain open and to try them. I also cordinate saddles being made with trees covered with spray on "box liner". This being a price point thing.

I built a sail boat a few years ago and that introduced me to the world of epoxies and different fiberglass cloths.

I now use epoxy exclusively for gluing my trees together.

I have covered one tree of mine with epoxy and fiberglass and also put in a cable rigging in it.! Not very traditional but it made an awsome lightweight saddle.

For me it was a worse mess than slimey rawhide!!!

One of my issues with fiberglass is that my glues don't stick to it as well..and

it seemed to me that to make it as strong as heavy rawhide you would need either multiple layers or very heavy cloth and multiplke coating of epoxy.

Got to get to work

Andy

[Chi Stockyrd Saddle Tree]

Why do we as a group of crafters look for better tools? Why do we put limits on the inventions of tomorrow? What benefits can come from new age technologies? Well: lighter trees = lighter saddles, composite materials used for space to withstand gravitational forces and extreme temperatures= stronger more durable tree, the ability to allow ourselves to effectively use our time to create a product of which there is great demand for= cash in our pockets sooner. A working cowboy needs a saddle to work in today! Not tomorrow, not two weeks form now, not two years from now. Today! We place a bind on these working cowboys when we limit ourselves to Archaic Ideals. As an Industry only two hundred years old, there is too little tradition. Knifes have changed. Machine's have changed that help us make the trees, make the saddles even. Tools of the "tradition" have changed in design over the years to better the industry. Riggings have had several changes from who was making them from different parts of the country. Braiding and twisting methods have been refined. Ropes are poly based rather than grass. The use of alloys in all metals to change screws and nails and hardware. Why does this one aspect of saddle making remain unchanged? Or have so much push against to remain the same? Restrictions on tanneries make it harder for quality rawhide and leather to be made. It's to thin and drops off at the edges and there are smaller hides. Nothing is coming from mature hides. Forest restrictions are limiting the cutting of quality woods. What next, are we going to dip Bass wood or even Balsa in "good" epoxy to make it stronger because somebody still wants a wood tree? Why does anybody want to better their materials or their goods and products? Why don't we all stay in the Dark Ages and keep making 50Lbs saddles. Let's refuse to buy new knifes, hell, let's refuse to even sharpen them. Now, there is a place for all things. There is a place for Good, and I mean good, level, properly made wood/rawhide trees and that is along side composite trees. WE, we, all have seen what each of the trees can do and that each match up to each other. There are poorly made wood and rawhides trees out there that are mishapped and look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick. There is a bad name to composite trees because the technologies weren't being used by those who actually ride for a living. There are bad and good in both of these worlds. You go with what you know works and what can keep up with the job. And you go with the guys who can create the trees you want. AND you move forward, because that's where world goes. Forward for a better way of life and working and building and use of our time as leather crafters.