Rose Head Knife Clean Up And Repair

[Oldtoolsniper]

An old Rose head knife I picked up for next to nothing. You can see why from the first picture, she was a little rough. That being said I'm a firm believer that if it's beyond repair you may as well try and repair it because it can't get any broker! I know that's not proper but broken won't work and broked ain't a word for that sentence either.

The first picture shows the knife as it was when I got it.

The second shows the handle removed. It's a 5/32" steel pin for those interested in knowing the pin size.

Picture three shows it back together.

Picture four is just closer so you can see I did not remove every pit down flush from the blade. It is also not sharpend yet.

The inlays are Ivory from a late 1800's piano keyboard they are 3/8" and cover a repair to the handle. The pin holding the blade has been replaced by a 5/32" brass rod. The missing wood around the pin was replaced with epxoy mixed with sanding dust from the handle.

The handle is walnut and I chose to repair it rather than replace it.

I tried to keed everything as original as I could on this.

Total time invested was about four hours. That's actually working on it, not drying time or breaks from sanding out rust pits.

I have a lot experience with restoring old woodworking tools and I am a woodworker with all the tools to build whatever I need. I'm saying that because doing this sort of thing can overwhelm folks who are not prepared. It's also not a cheap way to get a tool if you charge an hourly rate for your time. Having to buy all the tools would really make the price jump.

I used

Ivory key from piano

Two 1 x 30 belt sanders 120 through 2000 grit

1 drill press

4 sizes of drill bits

Shims and scrap boards to level handle for drilling

I 3/8" drill hole punch made from pipe to cut inlays

Wet/dry sandpaper from 80 grit to 2000 grit

Mineral oil for sandpaper lube

Bolt cutter

Dremel tool

Dremel grinding stones

5/32" brass rod

Buffer

4 different buffing wheels with different compound on each wheel

Epoxy

Bodied linseed oil/varnish/mineral spirits 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 mix

Rubber gloves

Lots of blue tape on edges ( even dull they cut flesh)

Band-aids

Safety glasses

A bunch of other stuff I forgot

Lots of patience

The last one is the most important. Stop and leave it alone. Think through the problem and go back to it.

I'm working on a few more. Each manufacture did things in their own way. I'm sure over the years the methods vary within the same manufacturer. The Dixon I'm working on has a rosewood handle that is simply driven on the tang. Two brass tacks hold the ferrule on and have caused the wood to split out over the years. You can see that handle in picture three in the background.

I'm pointing that out so anyone who wishes to do this will take the time to figure out how to take the one they have apart.

[J Hayes]

Pretty cool, nice job. I have 2 Rose knives that need some attention, worked on one, just the edge and boy is it hard steel! The polish you have on yours is very impressive, well done!

[Colt Hammerless]

That's a really nice job of cleaning it up. I've got a couple of big Roses to work on myself (just got one in today actually.) A couple of other knives as well. Do you use the mineral oil to lube all of the grits of sandpaper? I've been started with 220 grit, but that's obviously too fine to start with. I guess I need to drop down a bit to get rid of some of the pitting.

Paul

[Oldtoolsniper]

The very first thing I do is grind the edge off with the belt sander. I forgot that part. It's a 4 inch belt sander. This gets the nicks out of the blade and shapes the edge so you are not trying to sand out pits on a sharp edge. It keeps the end of your fingers on your fingers too.

J Hayes is correct, these blades by Rose are HARD! I start at 90 grit and work until the pits are as far gone as I'm going to get them. I did not want to sand the name out of the blade so check your progress often. I use oil for all grits, my handle is removed. If you leave the handle on oil will soak into it as will the black slurry you create while sanding. I would use good blue or green painters tape to keep the handle clean. Any oil will work I just happen to have lots of mineral oil on hand for trapping.

Try not to skip grits, it makes it harder to get the scratches from heavier grits out if you skip.

If you decide to take the hadle off driving the pin out is tough. It's not tapered but it's most likely rusted in place and chances are high that you will damage the handle around the pin hole. I used an arbor press to remove mine. Forgot that tool in my list too!

The Dixon knife I'm working on is not near as hard as the Rose. The osbornes have the softest blades according to my sanding.

[Colt Hammerless]

Thanks Oldtoolsniper! Yeah those Roses are hard. I've worked on a couple of them already. I just took the blade out of an Osborne the other day, as it was loose, and did damage the handle a bit getting it out. Never worked with a Dixon. I did have a little Gomph that seemed to be as hard as the Roses I've had. I have a nice big Gomph I got in not long ago, and haven't put an edge on it yet, so don't know how hard the steel on it will be, but I imagine it'll be hard. Fortunately, that one doesn't need much cleaning up, as it was really nice already.

Paul

[bruce johnson]

Good job. I'd agree with the perceived hardness on the Rose knives. An old guy told me that "A Rose knife is harder than a whore's heart and stays sharper than a mother-in-law's tongue". He was colorful and very accurate.

[Tannin]

Nice job. I like to see old tools restored & used.

BTW electrolysis is a gentle, easy way to clean off surface rust. I use washing soda solution (cheap & safe) as the electrolyte and an old homemade 12V battery charger (about 1 amp I think) for the "juice", and an old gardening fork as the other electrode (don't use stainless steel, polarity is important).

Another simpler approach I've heard recommended is to simply soak the metal in white vinegar for a few hours. Or wire wool and some "elbow grease" - old school! None of these approaches alone will give the highly polished, shiny metal finish shown above though, which I am sure is better than when the tool was brand new

Edited October 2, 2014 by Tannin

[Oldtoolsniper]

I use electrolysis on tools that the pitting is not very deep. Seems like these old knives were put down years ago and just left to rust, they are either clean and taken care of or in rough shape. Some of the pitting on these is the same depth as the makers stamp. They can be brought back to good shape with a lot of handwork and some time.

I'm truly amazed at how well these old tools take an edge and hold it. Considering all the computerized methods used today to temper blades and how they did it a hundred years ago. I'll take one of these old girls over any six modern osbornes in a heart beat, rust and all. They are wonderful tools when you get them back to useable condition.

In my opinion the worst thing to do to one of these old tools is going after them with a wire wheel. I see countless examples of wire wheeled old tools and to me they look awful. I'd rather have all of the rust on them then a wire wheeled version. Doing that rounds all the letters off on the makers mark and eats up brass and wood something fierce.

[GerryR]

I'm interested in how you restored the wood handle, Including the brass ferrule?

[Oldtoolsniper]

I'm interested in how you restored the wood handle, Including the brass ferrule?

Warning! Please do not assume this will work on all of these knives. Each manufacturer did things in their own way and pin sizes as well as ways to attach the handle May or may not be the same. Go slow and be prepared to do some repair work on the handle you remove.

I'm not trying to insult folks with these instructions I'm explaining things in detail so the things you have on hand can be used to do this.

Look at how the brass is inserted onto your handle. Try and determine if it was slid onto the handle after the blade was installed into the handle. If that is possible you may have a rod under the ferrule that holds the handle on. If there is no way that this is possible make sure there is not a pin through the handle somewhere else that is covered with grime or hidden by an earlier repair.

On this knife the steel pin was apparent but really hard to remove. I used a magnet to determine it was steel so from there I could assume it was rusted into the blade. It was. I shimmed up the handle so it was level and drove the pin out with a short punch and an arbor press. The pin was 5/32". If you look at the pictures the rust tore out some of the handle so be prepared for that. I was prepared to make an new handle if needed and I'm fortunate to have the tools to do it.

Driving it out with a hammer would work too but I find better control with the press.

Using a vice as a press with a block of wood behind the handle and a hole drilled for the pin to slide out into would work too.

The brass ferrule in this case is very thin stuff. I chose not to remove if from the wood because it was not loose and removing it would have most likely destroyed it. It's press fit onto the handle.

Here are some things to remember about wood. Humidity or moisture will swell it, while being super dry will shrink it. Drawers stick all summer and then pull right out dumping everything on your feet in the winter here in Iowa. I have two old food dehydrators that I use to shrink wood or dry it. Sometimes a day in the dehydrator will shrink the wood and the ferrule will fall off. I believe that if I can not pull it off by hand I will cause more damage to it by forcing it so I operate with it in place.

The Dixon I'm working on had two brass nails through the ferrule and no pin through the handle. That's why there is the warning at the top of this post.

With the ferrule in place I sanded the handle by hand through 400 grit. I went this fine because I was sanding the brass too. The brass should be level with the wood, sanding both at the same time makes this simple. Save the sanding dust because you will want it for the epoxy repair on the handle. You will be making epoxy wood putty.

Tape the wood part of the handle with good blue or green painters tape. Don't use cheap stuff or regular masking tape because it will leave sticky residue all over the wood and then you have to clean up that mess too. Avoid the urge to go "Harbor Freight" on tape, it is not worth the aggravation.

Now you can polish the brass without turning the handle black. I use a buffing wheel and jewelers rouge. You can sand it also up to about 1000 grit then polish it with brasso or some other metal polish for non-ferrous metal. If the wood is taped up good the wood will stay wood and not turn black. A dremel with a buff would work too. In the Marine Corps we did it with sandpaper and Brasso so there are many ways to get that little piece of brass shiny.

If the ferrule is off the handle then polish away with no worries about the wood!

Chemical stripping of the wood should not be required and be warned that chemical strippers may or may not eat the brass. Ammonia eats brass.

The handle in this case is walnut. Walnut is not an oily wood so glue adheres very well to it. If your handle is rosewood then it is oily wood and glue does not bond well to it without prep work. If your handle is rosewood you have to treat any place you are applying glue with acetone or lacquer thinner to remove the surface oil from the wood so glue will stick. Most all of your modern wood glues are water based and oil prohibits the moisture in the glue from penetrating or bonding to the wood. Remove the surface oil and it will bond. You have to do this even for epoxy. Gorilla glue won't work, it's a moisture (water is required for it to work) reactive adhesive. Oily wood has no moisture for it to react too. It also foams all over the place and creates another mess to clean up.

Once the handle work is done I complete the blade work minus sharpening it.

I installed the handle back on the blade. I cut the 5/32" brass rod about a 1/2" to long and roughed it up for the epoxy to stick to the pin. I use 100 grit paper to rough it up. The pin has oil on it from manufacturing and epoxy won't stick to oil. I drove the new brass through the handle and blade. It sticks out on both sides. You belt sand it off flush later.

Because I have tear out on both sides of the handle I did not use epoxy inside the pin hole. The pin will be epoxied on each side of the handle so I opted not to place it into the handle as well. Either way will work if you have tear out. If I you made a new handle I would epoxy the inside of the hole around the pin. I'm not a knife maker so this may be wrong but it's what I do.

I mixed the epoxy and added sanding dust to it so it pretty much matches the wood from the handle. It's epoxy wood putty or filler at this point. I use the thirty minute stuff because I'm slow. Clean the area to be adhered to with a q-tip and acetone ( finger nail polish remover is acetone, wife or daughter may have some). Apply the epoxy to the tear out area on one side, level the handle to and wait for it to set up. Now do the same thing on the other side. You can do both sides at once but gravity will be a problem on the bottom hole. I use my fishing rod dryer so I do both sides at once and clamp it into the rotating dryer for a few hours so the epoxy levels.

After both sides are done leave it alone for at least 24 hours. Longer is better because epoxy shrinks. You don't want to sand it and then have it shrink into the hole creating recessed areas around your pin.

I belt sand the pins down to almost flush. Caution here, heat will make the epoxy let go so don't overdo the pin grinding. You don't really want to be sticking the wood handle in water to cool the pin either. A file and sandpaper will work too. Tape the blade and clamp it in a vice between two pieces of leather and file the pins down or dremel them too. Whatever works for you.

Tape the ferrule off again with good tape. Or you can leave it and polish it again after sanding in the finish if you feel the need.

I finish sand the pin pin to 400 grit. I go to 400 grit because I wet sand the finish in at 400 grit. I wet sand the finish in because it's a handle on a tool. It's a tool I don't really want to slip with so a glossy, shiny, and slippery handle is not what I want. Using a mixture of 1/3 boiled linseed oil, 1/3 oil based varnish and 1/3 mineral spirits I sand in the finish. I use 400 grit wet/dry (black) sandpaper and wet sand the finish into the handle. Do not go "Harbor Freight" on your sandpaper or your handle will be black or the same color as the sandpaper. Mineral spirits is a solvent and solvent will loosen the glue on cheap wet/dry sand paper and then you have a black handle. 3M paper is not effected by mineral spirits.

Dip the sandpaper in the finish and hand sand the finish into the handle. You can also dip the handle into the finish and then sand the handle. The point is to sand the finish into the handle, how you apply the finish doesn't matter. Wet sanding the finish will create a slurry that will fill the grain and minor imperfections on the handle. Sand until it gets sticky and hard to sand. Hold the blade end and wipe the handle off with a disposable rag preferably one not full of lint. Let the handle dry for an hour or so, if you are not happy with your sanding job simply repeat wet sanding the finish into the handle until you are. You want to add finish each time you sand it or it will become a sticky mess.

Let it dry for a day or so when you are happy with it and then you can remove the tape from it and sharpen away.

I use paste wax on my handles after they are completely dry but this is not necessary, I just prefer it. I also use it on the steel to prevent rusting.

What the finish parts do.

Boiled linseed oil adds depth to the wood grain and penetrates the handle or wood (must be boiled not raw or it will never dry)

Oil based varnish adds protection and durability (water based will not work for this type of finish)

Mineral spirits thins the other two so they penetrate the wood and makes sanding it into the wood easier.

With the finish being thin and sanding it in you protect the wood but it still looks and feels like wood. It won't be slippery and it will feel good in your hand.

Do not wad the rags up and toss them in the trash. Spontaneous combustion is a hazard with finishes so dispose of your materials with proper precautions.

I know this was long and drawn out, I'm sorry about that but I don't know how else to explain it. It has taken me longer to type this then it does to finish a handle. (Not counting drying time)

The Ivory inlay is another matter. It's cut from a piano key with a drill press. You can't punch Ivory it's a bone and it shatters. Match the size of circle you wish to inlay with a forstner bit of the same size and epoxy it in.

If you are doing this to resell knives you will be working for less than minimum wages or asking a premium price for the tool when it's done.

It takes me about four hours to do a knife. Figure the price of the used knife, your hours of labor and you are into the $200.00 price range pretty quick. Shop labor here is an average of $65.00 an hour and you should consider your labor as shop time. I figure shop rate because I have all the tools. Time and material would work out the same or close to it.

My goal is to have an awesome estate auction! You know the one where people are saying what the heck was this guy thinking and why does he have three of everything? It's nice to have goals!

Edited October 4, 2014 by Oldtoolsniper

[GerryR]

Thank you for detailing all that. I am challenged when it comes to restoring wood pieces. In fact, I am challenged when even trying to get a good finish on new wood. Thanks again

[Oldtoolsniper]

GerryR,

Try that finish on some scrap wood. I learned it from an instructor at Palomar College while attending classes in furniture technology, it's woodworking with a fancy name. It's a simple easy finish on smooth wood. The story is that the recipe came from Sam Maloof and is what he did on his rocking chairs. I don't know if that's true or not but the finish works and is easy to do. I use it on duck calls so it's even pretty durable.

[MakerUnknown]

Great post for all that information. Thanks

[Macca]

Great post

Thanks for the detailed breakdown

[Tannin]

Just re-visiting this thread as I have just purchased a vintage J. Dixon Double Head Knife. Wow, oldtoolsniper, you really did do an amazing job restoring that round knife - more like an upgrade Fortunately the one I got doesn't need much work - probably just sharpening and perhaps some attention to surface corrosion/pitting. Would appreciate any thoughts/advice/suggestions on how to proceed*:

This one is just 3" across and 6" long in total - so smaller & the end corners "tighter" angled than my 5" head knife (which I am enjoying learning to use - scary but it focuses the mind & demands boldness). The handle is somewhat longer & simpler than the current model - perhaps quite old?

*BTW I now have a 4" soft polishing wheel kit that came with several different grinding/polishing compounds (green, blue & red - & I have my own white compound too) - which I could use, if appropriate(?). In the UK, removing patina can drastically reduce the value of old stuff - so I need to get the right balance between this being my working tool and it being a piece of our shared history.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tannin

[Oldtoolsniper]

In the UK, removing patina can drastically reduce the value of old stuff - so I need to get the right balance between this being my working tool and it being a piece of our shared history.[/i][/size]

Here is my personal take on "patina" it's usually rust. Rust to me adds no value to a tool. Antique dealers like to say it adds value but I can guarantee you that the "patina" free tool will almost always sell for more money at an auction and if given the choice between the two most folks will pick up the "patina" free version of the tool. It's marketing and its effective but which of the two knives that I showed would you buy? The rose knife complete with "patina" or the Rose knife after removing the "valuable patina"?

Find a run of the mill knife and go through the steps in this thread, it will really help you in the long run and if it's just a common user knife then you won't be afraid to booger it up learning. That's how I did my first one. It turned out so well I use it all the time. It's an Osborne and it requires constant honing to keep an edge but it looks nice and feels good in my hand. I cut the handle down so I push it with my palm, it's modified, "patina" free and useful so it's collector value is destroyed according to dealers.

Once you do one you will see all kinds of them selling on eBay for not a lot of money. I have around twenty or so different ones and they all are going to be "patina" or rust free when I'm done with them. I've been surprised by a couple I have, one has no name and holds an edge forever as well as being extremely thin and another is a Shapleigh brand that really is a smooth, edge holding cutter as well.

I don't buy osbornes anymore unless they are selling for under $15.00 because most of them don't hold an edge worth snot. I really don't care for working tools that require me to work on them all the time to keep them working.

Decide weather you have a tool that you are going to use or one you are going to collect. From that perspective then decide how to proceed to get the end result you are looking for. If you have something that is truly rare then I would sell it to a collector of those things or donate it to a museum so others may enjoy it.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Oldtoolsniper

[bullmoosepaddles]

Several of you folks have mentioned restoring old tools. How is it you know how to tell the difference between more and less desirable Osborne knives?

I wish to try this for myself and while I understand there is a learning curve, I would rather rework a knife that will give me better service than the Tandy model I currently on.

[Oldtoolsniper]

Several of you folks have mentioned restoring old tools. How is it you know how to tell the difference between more and less desirable Osborne knives?

I wish to try this for myself and while I understand there is a learning curve, I would rather rework a knife that will give me better service than the Tandy model I currently on.

Most of the knives out there will be better than a Tandy knife in my opinion. I'm not going to give you a definitive answer to your question and here is why. Knives from the same manufacturer vary so to say one is better than the other based on a name is not entirely correct. There is the age factor and how many hands it's passed through and what each set of hands has done to it. The best cutting, feeling and overall performer I own does not even bear a name. I've gone through twenty five or so knives, one of my hobbies is restoring old tools. This applies to all cutting edges from those old tools, a name does not guarantee the blade is good. My dad sharpened everything on a grinding wheel until the metal turned blue then quenched it for temper. When you buy used you may well be getting a tool my dad or someone like him owned. You won't know it until you know it and then it's to late.

Here is what I would recommend. Buy an inexpensive one on eBay, don't get wrapped up in a name right off the bat. It's to learn on. Do not buy one that the blade is full of pits. You can't sharpen pits. It takes a while but they are out there and you can get one for $30 or so dollars. Use it to learn on. I don't know how else you would do it if learning is your goal.

If you just want a good used knife I'd get in touch with Bruce Johnson on this forum he resells knives he's has gone through. I have not purchased from him but many here have. They cost more but he has to put a few hours of labor into each knife and from his reputation on here I'm betting you will be getting a good sound knife.

You can't really tell until you learn and you learn through experience. Just looking at a knife only tells you what the surface looks like and no more. There is no one who can tell you if it will hold an edge just by eyeballing it.

To me it's part of the hobby, I enjoy the challenge of doing it. I haven't gotten into reselling knives I've cleaned up because each one is different. If I ever do rest assured it will be at a loss compared to the hours I have into each one. I polish them out to a mirror finish it's just not nessasary to do that but l do because I like it.

Get one and I'll offer up as much advice as I can on making it shine. Be warned its not a cheap way to get a knife unless you have all the tools to do the work already and your labor is valueless, in other words it's a hobby.

[bullmoosepaddles]

Oldtoolsniper,

Thank you. I do have the tools from years of woodworking. Its just I have read articles where one person seems to have the idea that an old oval or round makers mark are better than the others. I wanted to try to buy the best rehab I could. This will not be a business venture. I want a few good ones for myself. After that I am done.

If I need advice I will certainly ask. Your reworks are things of beauty.

[zuludog]

Though I don't have a round knife I have been buying & using old & secondhand tools for car mechanics & leatherwork out of necessity. I keep seeing these sort of discussions, and my attitude is this - one man's patina is another man's dirt

Bugger the sentimentality! Tools are meant to be used, so get them as clean and as sharp and as shiny as you can!

[Oldtoolsniper]

The hardest ones I've dealt with steel wise are the Rose knives, tough to sharpen but the five I own all hold an edge well. They tend to sell pretty high for something to learn on.

This is a Rose knife that required a lot of work to bring back around. You can see what pitting does to the cutting edge. It's magnified X 20

Rust is not a big deal, pitting is another matter and unless you really want to work a long time I would pass on pitting near the cutting edge.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Oldtoolsniper

[Miguelillo]

On 2/10/2014 at 4:46 AM, bruce johnson said:

Good job. I'd agree with the perceived hardness on the Rose knives. An old guy told me that "A Rose knife is harder than a whore's heart and stays sharper than a mother-in-law's tongue". He was colorful and very accurate.

 

[bikermutt07]

This was a great read.

[Brianm77]

Yup.  This was a good one. One of these days. 

[Simeon54]

Such a great and useful topic. I have an old head knife, i'm guessing it's Osbourne, but the makers mark is gone. I've been trying to remove the brass pin with no luck.

Going to try the arbor press route and try to save the handle.

 

Is @Oldtoolsniper still around? I'd love your thoughts on this knife. I'll post some pics this week when I have a moment to take them