Motor For Adler 105-8 Clone

[AEH]

Gentlemen,

I recently bought a Claes 214-1 heavy duty machine, which is an Adler 105-8 clone. (Pictures attached). It was set up as a treadle machine, but I want to get a motor for it. I have read a few threads in this forum about motors, and also studied a few suppliers web sites, but I am still somewhat confused about the right choice of motor for this machine. I would like to be able to sew up to 10-12 mm thick leather, and, as I mostly have been hand sewing up to now and have little experience with machine sewing, I need very good control i.e. slow speed.

I realise that I will need a servo motor, but I am not sure of how much power I will need, or how low the lowest RPM needs to be. The hand wheel pulley of this machine is 150 mm (6 in). I live in Norway, and the motor must be 220/240 V.

I have been looking at this two motors: https://www.universalsewing.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=1`302351&usscriteria=448.101&usssearchby=header

and

http://www.leathermachineco.com/product/brushless-digital-d-c-servo-motor/

but I am not dure if the fist one is slow enough or if the second one is strong enough. I will be grateful for any advice and suggestions.

Thanks,

Arvid

Edited November 10, 2014 by AEH

[Constabulary]

I can highly recommend Jack Servo Motors with 750 Watts Motor from College Sewing - this one is quite powerful and it runs on 220V and since Great Britain is in the EU you don´t have to pay import taxes and shipping is cheaper as well.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/JK-561A-220V-750W=1HP-SERVO-MOTOR

I personally have this motor with 550 and 750 watts and I´m very pleased with them.

In case you need more torque you probably have to add a speed reducer as well - College Sewing don`t have them but they are fairly easy to make.

Since your machine was treadle powered you already have a "hole" for the speed reducer shaft in the right cast iron table leg... I have added two picture of my setups with these motors (both have a speed reducer) so you have an idea.

EDIT:

Sorry - Norway is not an EU member but anyway - the Jack motors are great and shipping is still cheaper I think.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Constabulary

[AEH]

Hi Constabulary,

I have looked at this motor, and it looks nice. I particularly like that the speed control don't sit on the motor. I also like your set up, But I have been in contact with College Sewing, and they say that the slowest speed for this motor is 500 rpm. I want to be able to run as slow as 50/60 stitches per minute, and I am afraid that will be difficult with this motor.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Arvid

[GerryR]

You can use a standard 3 phase AC motor (1725 rpm) with a 5 to 1 gear reducer attached and use a VFD (variable speed drive) for speed control. The VFD only requires single phase input (220, 1ph input VFD's are readily available) and generates the three phase output for the motor. This gives zero to 345 rpm, and depending on the output pulley diameter ratio to the pulley on your machine, can be reduced even further. The VFD's provide constant torque to the rated motor rpm, so there is no issue with being able to sew the thickness you require with a 1/2 to 3/4 hp motor. (I am actually using a 1 hp motor that I had.) Foot pedal control can be obtained by using a TIG welder foot pedal, which can be had from Ebay; the motor and speed reducer can be had from Ebay, as well.

Of course you need to have someone around that is comfortable making the setup, but I like it as well as the DC servo's available.

I just thought I would mention another option

[Constabulary]

It all depends on the ration between motor pulley and balance wheel. The smaller the motor pulley and the larger the balance wheel the slower the machine sews.

500rpm is the lowest top speed setting - meaning the motor makes max 500 RPM when you push the pedal down fully.

The motor runs actually at 200rpm (slowest possible speed) regarding the display. When you add a speed reducer it will be much slower. I have added on both machines a 1:3 speed reducer and my Singer 133K sews much slower at 200rpm (motor rpm) than the Singer 111 as the 133K has a much larger balance wheel.

I just have ordered custom made 40mm pulley to get a more torque.

[Constabulary]

Just wanted to give you an idea of how it looks when my Jack motor is running at 200 rpm and how slow the needles goes up and down. Event an 500 and 1200 rpm it is still relatively slow stitching.

So the more reduction you have the faster you can run the motor and the more punch you have at your needle at a slow speed.

I´m not a technician and I cannot calculate the speed reduction from motor to balance wheel or the "belt distance reduction" in meters per second (or so) correctly but it is extremely slow and it works well.

Quite sunny today - sorry about the light conditions but I think you can see what I mean. I hope this helps.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Constabulary

[mikesc]

Constabulary..hi ..Thanks for posting that video , very helpful..

Some questions if I may ..

What is the diameter of the small pulley on your servo motor ?..and what is the diameter of the small pulley on your reducer, and the diameter of the big pulley on your reducer ?

( it looks like the big pulley is around 20cm diameter and the small one around 4 cm diameter, is the pulley on the servo also 4 cm diameter ? If that were the case? it would give a reduction in speed of a factor of about 5 of the output rpm shown on the control box, that would be 40rpm at the big pulley )..and what is the flywheel diameter on the machine head.

It actually looks like the servo pulley might be even smaller diameter, as it seems ( without my actually timing your video ) that you are getting something closer to 25 rpm equivalent at the needle bar and hook..I was looking to make a "reducer" ( problem is I cant find a supplier of pulleys in France ..and the new "eco" laws here mean that all the council run "refuse dumps" refuse to give anyone parts from scrapped machinery , such as old washing machines or computers* etc , if one asks, it all has to go for "re-cycling" ) and buy the same unit from college sewing ( probably have to buy all my pulleys from them too, adds to shipping costs )..

* I used to get scrapped computers for parts and rebuild them into working machines to give away to people who could not afford them, fit simple linux ( linux is damn near virus proof, like "linux mint", looks and handles like win XP, very good for "old folks" or "newbies" ) , now all the scrapped machines, washing machines, computers etc are collected from the council refuse depots by private companies ( who are paid by the councils ) shipped to China or India , where they are "responsibly recycled" by child labour in appalling conditions..

Edited November 11, 2014 by mikesc

[Constabulary]

Just before I shot the Video my new 40mm pulleys have arrived (custom made and not from College Sewing) and I have installed them.

So the new motor pulleys are 40mm, the pulleys at the speed reducer are 50mm and 150mm and the balance / fly wheel is 150mm as well.

So it goes from 40mm to 150mm and from 50mm to 150mm.

I´m very please with the performance so far, I only have problems with the old resin coated Army nylon webbing as it it extremely stiff and dense because of the resin coating. Seems I need a leather point needle instead of a round point but thats a different story.

Regarding the new laws - wow - that is something I would have expected in the "bureaucratic" Germany but not in France

My speed reducers are custom made so I have someone on hand who mills the pulleys out of aluminum. The reducer pulleys have 2 ball bearings so they are really nice and of a fine quality!

When I ordered them I had no clue what the actual effects will be so I ordered them with 3 steps but 2 steps (50mm / 150m) enough so no need for the middle pulley. I´m still learning... ;-)

[mikesc]

Regarding the new laws - wow - that is something I would have expected in the "bureaucratic" Germany but not in France

<small rant on >

France has six times the number of civil servants ( bureaucrats ) that Germany has..and that is not counting all the workers in such as EDF or GDF etc ( which used to be state run ) and who have the same ( and sometimes better "privileges" than actual civil servants* ..such as only paying €15.00 per month for their electricity..no matter how much electricity they actually consume ) ,same applies to all retired civil servants ( and retired politician ) , and all retired people who used to work at EDF or GDF etc.

Plus we have the "assimiles"..not officially civil servants, but who have all of the above privileges, and like all of the above they cannot be fired..

French bureaucracy costs businesses here more than the entire GDP of Holland..

The top individual income tax rate is up to 45 percent, and the top corporate tax rate has been lowered to 34.3 percent. Efforts to increase the top marginal tax rate to 75 percent were ruled unconstitutional. Other taxes include a value-added tax (VAT). The overall tax burden equals 44.2 percent of gross national income. Government expenditures continue to make up over half of the domestic economy, and public debt has reached over 90 percent of GDP.

Businesses ( even small ones like mine, pay well over 50% of our net ( after overheads and costs ) profit in taxes here the worts taxes are obligatory "social contributions", higher rates even than Sweden ) ..No-one wants to "hire", because it costs so much in "contributions and taxes" when a business does hire..Hence we have over 10% unemployment ..

We have 3 times as many people working for the government, the state ( here they are called "departements" ), the county, the town hall etc as all of the USA..

It has got waaaaay worse since 2012..

France invented bureaucracy..and then refined a particularly Kafka-esque version of it, which all the little businesses are paying for, the big ones ( like everywhere ) can afford tricky accountants and lawyers to make sure that they pay a far smaller percentage..

*My wife has been working as a French civil servant ( specialising in care of old people, Alzheimer's and dementia patients ) for the last 10 years ( she is working today, a public holiday in France,getting paid just the same rate as any other day, she is not one of the "privileged" )..she, like some French, is appalled at the waste and corruption and lazyness of so many who are civil servants here..

</small rant off>

Thanks for the details about the pulleys..the handwheel size explains much..I'll have to get my pulleys from College..good thing that they are lightweight alu, my sealed race bearings ( for the shaft ) will come from the UK too, here bearings are also a ridiculous price..even a single simple 20mm ball bearing ( just the one steel spherical bearing is over €3.oo ) ..I buy them at $14.oo per 1000 plus shipping from the USA ( I use them to make movable armatures for claymation figures fro my sons business, I drill and tap them to take armature rods ) ..shipping for them from the USA runs me about another $25.oo and then I have VAT on it all ..still way cheaper than €3.oo each ( plus VAT ) !!

Edited November 11, 2014 by mikesc

[VanRhodes]

So the new motor pulleys are 40mm, the pulleys at the speed reducer are 50mm and 150mm and the balance / fly wheel is 150mm as well.

So it goes from 40mm to 150mm and from 50mm to 150mm.

If im not mistaken the first stage with a 40mm motor pulley going to a larger 150mm pulley will give you a ratio of 3.75(150/40=3.75:1), and the second stage going from 50mm to 150mm again will give you an additional ratio of 3:1. So, in speed, this means the first stage reduce your 1200rmp to 320rmp(1200/3.75=320rpm) wich is then divided in three as its passed on from the second stage giving you a final rpm of 106.66(320/3=106.6). This is about 2 stitches per second(1.77 to be exact), provided I have understood the math correctly. Very impressive work brother!

[AEH]

Just wanted to give you an idea of how it looks when my Jack motor is running at 200 rpm and how slow the needles goes up and down. Event an 500 and 1200 rpm it is still relatively slow stitching.

Hi Constabulary,

Very instructive video, and fine set up. I would like to avoid a speed reducer, both for the cost (it will probably be very expensive to have one made here in Norway, if I even could find someone to do it) and the construction of the table stand may be a problem when it comes to fitting it. You saying that the motor runs as low as 200rpm makes it more attractive, but if I still have to buy a speed reducer and a new table stand ...

Need to think about that one. Thanks anyway,

Arvid

[Constabulary]

@ mikesc

well, that explaines a lot - sounds a little bit like the situation in Greece. We don´t live in a perfect world - thats how it goes.

But thats all a different story lets get back to topic

@ vanrhodes

thanks for the lesson in math - it never was my favorite!

@ AEH

I can ask the guy who makes the speed reducer for me if he can make some more.I actually thought about a bigger 50mm / 200mm speed reducer for my Singer 133K. I will probably get a better price if I order more.

When I look at your stand - there should be a hole in the right leg where once the shaft for the treadle pulley was - if you know what I mean.

So this is perfect for adding a speed reducer. Pretty much the same situation as on my stand but I have a flange bolted on the leg.

[mikesc]

VanRhodes..to get the ratios you need to divide the pulley circumferences, ( which is also, co-incidentally, the distance traveled by a point on the belt per revolution of each pulley that it is on ) not their diameters..although the figures for the ratios are close to dividing by diameters, but, to do so is not as precise..( But it is so close as to be "good enough for jazz" )

to get the circumference of each pulley you use

C = 2πr,

Then divide the bigger circumference of each pulley "pair", by the smaller circumference of each pulley "pair"..

So if on Constabulary's slowest speed of 200rpm ( You used 1200 , but I'm sure that 2 was shown on the control box, I think 2 on the display means 200rpm ? )..Constabulary ?

Diameter 150 gives circumference of 471.3 ( I'm rounding to nearest decimal point )..diameter of 40 gives circumference of 125.7

ratio of 471.3/125.7 = 3.74 ( nearest decimal point 3.75 ) so "transferred" rpm of 200/3.75=53.3 rpm ( "rounded" again )

then the second "reducer stage applies..

Diameter 150 gives circumference of 471.3 ( I'm rounding to nearest decimal point )..diameter of 50 gives circumference of 157.1 ( rounded )

ratio of 471.3/157.1 = 2.99 or 3.00 ( rounded to 3.00 ) so transferred RPM of 53.3 / 3.00 = 17.76 rpm ( "rounded" again )

which seems to be about what the machine is running at ( measured by watching the needle motion ) on the video..I counted 3 "up and downs" ( would have made 3 stitches ) in 21 seconds,

or about 18 rpm ..which would be great

Or I could be wrong..as has been known to happen, on more than one occasion

@ AEH

I can ask the guy who makes the speed reducer for me if he can make some more.I actually thought about a bigger 50mm / 200mm speed reducer for my Singer 133K. I will probably get a better price if I order more.

You could have a lot of interest in that..

Edited November 11, 2014 by mikesc

[VanRhodes]

Mikesc: Thanks for the lesson in math, I knew I missed something! Although we did end up with pretty much the same ratios as mine were only 0.01 off in both cases.

[mikesc]

To tell the truth..In my head I did it your way ..

At school ( which was many decades ago ) I used to get into heaps of trouble in maths for not "showing my working out"..teacher couldn't see how I was "getting to the answers"..my point was always "What does it matter if when I got there it was right"..( 0.01 is as near to "right as it gets ..eh

So , I also learned how to "show all the working out" to "keep teachers happy/quiet"..and in case I ever became an engineer..

I didn't...( Artist / Designer for over 40 years now ) but due to teachers, I also have a head full of this kind of stuff ..

[VanRhodes]

Haha, just like me. I delivered the answers required but did not bother to show my entire process in getting there and just like you, I have also worked as an artist of sorts(3D-artist) and currently designer and pattern constructor.

[Constabulary]

@ AEH

I forgot to mention that College Sewing has not smaller pulleys fort the Jack Servos. The Jacks have pulleys with 13mm straight bore and College Sewing only has pulleys with 15mm straight bore as far as I remember.

@mikesc

You could have a lot of interest in that..

No problem but don´t forget that shipping comes on top.

Depends on how heavy they are - registered airmail all over the world is just about 10€ for a package up to 1Kg.

The one I would order will be for a 10mm V-belt, has a 200mm and 50mm pulley, 2 ball bearings and they will fit on a 15mm shaft. So this is the reducer pulley only w/o any mount or flange.

If some one needs a certain shaft I of course will ask for it too. But thats it - everything else would be too complicated

They guys is now on holidays for 10 days so it will take at least 14 days to get a quote.

So if some one is interested please send me a PN and I will try to get a quote for reducer pulleys and shaft (if needed).

[Northmount]

Hey guys, When calculating ratios, pulley diameter or circumference will work out to the same answer, if you carry enough decimal places. The 2 pi cancels out in your calculation, leaving just the diameter. (2 pi divided by 2 pi = 1) You would also get the same answer using radius. No advanced math required.

Now if you are calculating belt speeds or linear velocity at the rim of the pulley, then you need to use circumference and the pulley speed.

Tom

[mikesc]

So..Tom..did you get chewed out at school for not showing how you reached the answer(s) ?

Now if you are calculating belt speeds or linear velocity at the rim of the pulley, then you need to use circumference and the pulley speed.

Without using a reducer..and based upon observing the clutch driven Juki DLU 490 ( textile sewing machine not normally used for leather ) I bought last month and have just finished getting in running order again..

I'd say the linear velocity is a multiple of bats out of hell.. it seems real eager to eat fingers when you put your foot down other than really gently ..even with a small pulley.

[Northmount]

I'd say the linear velocity is a multiple of bats out of hell.. it seems real eager to eat fingers when you put your foot down other than really gently ..even with a small pulley.

That's why there's now a servo on one machine instead of a clutch motor, and a servo plus speed reducer on the other. Had tried just a smaller pulley on the clutch motor, but wasn't adequate at all. Sure makes life easier now, especially going around corners!

When I got into high school, math was no longer a problem. Suddenly became easy to make 100% on the exams. Teacher started using my papers for the answer key. Makes a real difference when you have good teachers that know what they are teaching.

Tom

[AEH]

@ AEH

I can ask the guy who makes the speed reducer for me if he can make some more.I actually thought about a bigger 50mm / 200mm speed reducer for my Singer 133K. I will probably get a better price if I order more.

When I look at your stand - there should be a hole in the right leg where once the shaft for the treadle pulley was - if you know what I mean.

So this is perfect for adding a speed reducer. Pretty much the same situation as on my stand but I have a flange bolted on the leg.

Your video are very convincing, and I am very near to go for a Jack 1 hp servo with a reducer. Would be very interesting to hear a ball park price and fabrication time for your speed reducer, very generous of you to offer your help. My table have the hole for the treadle wheel, and I believe that it is 15mm when some excess paint is removed. . The ting is that my table is constructed so as the supporting part between the legs (don't know what this is called in English) will be an obstruction if the distance from the leg to the far side of the wheel is more than 80 mm for a 150 mm wheel, or more than 50 mm for a 200 mm wheel. (Hope this make sense), Do you think this will be a problem?

Thanks again,

Arvid

[Constabulary]

I don´t think you have to worry. You once had a huge treadle wheel on your stand and the speed reducer is much smaller! The width of the speed reducer is about 4.5 - 5cm + 1 adjusting ring of about 1.5cm width on either side.

But in case you don`t have enough space you probably have to move the table plate a bit to the left or to the right. I can´t tell from the picture how much space you need but when you go straight down from the balance wheel (just how the V- belt will run) then there is the position of the small pulley.

Position of the large pulley is your choice...

If the hole in the leg is 15mm then you just have to buy a 15mm shaft of the needed length and 2 or 4 15mm adjusting rings. Maybe you can buy these parts locally but I can ask for prices too - I don´t mind. If the leg has 1 or 2 set screws for fixing the shaft you only need 2 rings - if there are no set screws you need 4 adjusting rings. You know what I mean?

Edited November 12, 2014 by Constabulary

[AEH]

With a total with of 50mm for the reducer pulleys there should be no problem. There are no set screws for the leg hole. If your fabricator can deliver shaft and adjusting rings it would be the most convenient solution for me, I may have problems with finding these parts her in my town.

I have been looking at this speed reducer: http://shop.raphaelsewing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=354

With shipping and taxes it probably will cost me about €150, just to suggest a cost limit for me for such a project.

Thanks again,

Arvid

[Constabulary]

I´m sure it will be cheaper. My current pulleys were just 40€ but they are for 8mm V-belts and 150mm in diamter so It hink the 200mm one for 10mm V-belts will be a bit more - I asume 50-55€. But I have to ask. Shaft and adjsuting rings are not very ecpensive I think.

BTW - how long do you need the shaft?

[AEH]

A very good price, I think.

50+(4x1.5)+20=130 mm, so with a little protruding space, let's say 160 mm shaft. Sounds good?

Btw, I will order the Jack 750W motor tomorrow.