Would Appreciate Your Advise On Restoring This Singer 45K25

[Constabulary]

Strange configuration, maybe they needed it that way for a certain sewing applications on some of the equipment they have repaired with it or they don´t wanted to switch the foot all the time.... I don´t know.

The foot holds down the material and ensures that the feed dog can transport the material properly. When the foot pressure is too low it is possible that the needle lifts up the material when it is in the upwards movement especially when sewing thick + dense materials like leather because of the frictional resistance between leather and needle.

It is also possible that when the pressure is too low the feed dog has not enough "grip" to move the material forward (especially when the teeth of the feed dog are rather worn than sharp) but when the pressure is too high the feed dog can leave marks on the leather or when you have waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much pressure on the feed dog if is possible that the feed dog is scratching on the leather w/o moving it (but thats rare). A good advice is that you keep the underside of the pressure foot well polished to reduce the frictional resistance on the foot.

[Evo160K]

Thanks for that Constabulary. Good tip about keeping the underside of the presser foot polished.

How about the roller? Since it's able to rotate around the presser bar, rather than being fixed like the foot, is there a correct alignment (direction of the plane it rolls in)? Why the roller rather than another fixed or wider foot. I think it has something to do with being able to turn the material more easily.

[Constabulary]

For sewing fabric some folks use Teflon tape on the underside of the foot but I´m not sure if it works with leather. I never tried it

With the roller the is feeding smoother (no frictional resistance on the foot) due to the roller and so you can even reduce the foot pressure I´d say (fewer marking feed dog marks on the leather). And yes, turning the material is easier f.i. when you are following curved edges, you can sew closer to raised edges and so forth.

The position of the roller is straight as the feed dog and it should be adjusted close to the needle w/o rubbing on the needle and thread.

[Evo160K]

Thanks Constabulary. That's helps. I'll practice with just the roller to see what it can do.

[Dignitas1980]

The 18-2 across the arm singer was just cleaned,oiled and a needle bar,feed dog, shuttle and needle plate replaced. to liven up the dull paint i use shelack with a cloth, just like french polishing an old piece of furniture but you need to move fast with the cloth!! this is from 1917 and has its original decals.

DSC_14.jpgDSC_15.jpg

This next one was left out in the rain to rust and was saved. it was stripped down and cleaned and polished. it is a 17-10 up the arm singer and it has all of its original parts to it i would think. the reason i say this is because there are two similarities to this machine and the old 45k1 on the floor. this 17-10 is from 1894 and the 45k from 1895 and looking closely at the parts you can notice that they are not finished like the latter models, they seem to be finished off roughly and maybe not squared up exactly. i managed to save some pictures of this restoration:

After it was cleaned and put together the only thing missing was the needle clamp, nothing else was needed. so i made that and put a needle in and it did not skip a stitch!!

The Singer 18-2 can sew dog collars and harnesses? The leather is about 3.5-7 mm. What about the needles and threads(nylon bonds) for this type? What`s the max size for needle and thread? I`m asking you because i`ve found this Singer 18-2 with 280$ and i want to know if suits me or not. Thank you!

[jimi]

Hi Dignitas, these machines are for light to medium leather, you would need a medium to heavy duty sewing machine for your 7 mm leather as that it pretty thick. you could maybe check out what other harness makers on the forum use for their work, i am sure they could put you on to a machine suited better for your needs. good luck.

[Dignitas1980]

SIL10-145-077a.jpg

Hi Dignitas, these machines are for light to medium leather, you would need a medium to heavy duty sewing machine for your 7 mm leather as that it pretty thick. you could maybe check out what other harness makers on the forum use for their work, i am sure they could put you on to a machine suited better for your needs. good luck.

Thank you!

[TinkerTailor]

Thanks for that Constabulary. Good tip about keeping the underside of the presser foot polished.

How about the roller? Since it's able to rotate around the presser bar, rather than being fixed like the foot, is there a correct alignment (direction of the plane it rolls in)? Why the roller rather than another fixed or wider foot. I think it has something to do with being able to turn the material more easily.

Alot of old sports equipment has felt backs and leather fronts with stuffing in the middle. While i have never used that machine, or fixed sports equipment, I can think of 4 issues which may be solved by the foot/roller combo. If I didn't leave my camera at work, I have a leather football helmet and shoulder pads from the 30's I could take pictures of the seams.

1: The backing compresses alot so the stitch tension could cause the outside edge to "fan out" as you stitch causing the edge of the material to be thicker, possible steering the material or lifting it off the dogs.The roller could be used to hold this down and get a flatter seam.

2: The rotatable roller would allow you to do seams down both sides of something without flipping it around.

3: Perhaps the roller also allows stitching items where the top surface is slanted in relation to the bottom, driving a regular set of feet to one side due to the slope.

4: Also helps hold down and feed the item if its upside down. You could keep the smooth leather foot for front side stitching, and use the roller for when you need the bite to feed it felt side up.

[Evo160K]

TinkerTailor,

Your four points sure makes sense to me, I'm old enough to remember that type of helmet and sports equipment, might have even worn one or two. You may be interested to know, I bought the machine from a company that specializes in sports equipment repair.

Thank you very much for your input.

[Constabulary]

Hey Al - how is it going? Any progress with your machine? Have you tried my decals? Do you have new parts already?

[Evo160K]

Hi Constabulary,

Project is moving slowly but surely forward. I have most of the majors parts thanks to some great people here on LW. Haven't tried the decals yet. Plan is to get the machine sewing well, which for the most part it is, then pull it apart for cleaning and painting. Do you have any parts that I can use on the 45K25?

Have a small issue that I'm trying to solve. The machine sews well with all threads except a high temperature fiberglass that we used to use in our business. It's about a 138 with a tensile strength of 12 pounds. Issue is it sews for a couple of stitches, sometimes just one, then breaks the top thread, looks like the thread has been hacked partially through multiple times with a dull knife. It will sew fine without material, but not with material (leather). I can't figure out where it's being hacked. I looked and polished every part I can get to, the tensions seem fine and the automatic thread controller loosens the thread just before it enters the leather.....it's a mystery. I've asked one of the sewing machine mechanics at a large, local, sewing manufacturing operation to stop by for a look.

The listing you put on eBay for the Singer 105-6 was outstanding, you do have a talent for it.

I don't need the 29K71 but I will buy it if the freight isn't too high, it's about 1,000 miles from me.

Best regards

[Frankqv]

Try going up one needle size.

[Constabulary]

I think I have no parts you would need. Didn´t get new parts.

I never have sewn with fiberglass thread but when the top thread breaks and the machine is threaded correctly then try a new needle or a needle 1 size larger. I´d also try to loosen the top and bottom tension a little bit. Do you wrap the thread around the tension pulley (the one before the thread regulator spring) 1/2 or 1 + 1/2 times? How old is the fiber glass thread? Is it probably "too old" to sew with it? I don´t know this type of thread so I honestly don´t know how and if it is aging.

I really wanted to keep the 105 but I got it at about the same time as the BUSMC 6HM (this really was a lucky circumstance and I had to act fast) and I had to decide which one has to go. The BUSMC has much more punch and can sew much thicker + it has a needle feed (was great for the heavy tent repair) and I love vintage machines. So it was the 105 that had to go. It was also a question of $$ (glad it sold fast). The BUSMC is cool but I think a Singer 97 would suit better in my "sewing room". So in case I will find one I´d probably sell the BUSMC again. But I´ll restore it first and then.... well, I don´t know... I think I can´t let it go... too cool machine

The 29K71 in NYC is a bargain and in nice condition too but sipping will probably cost a lot.

[hyttogpine]

I'm once again fascinating by all your skills and knowledge. Amazing.

The ability to a Singer 45K25 machine, compare to a Singer 29-4. If we say a 29-4 is meant to light leather swing. Will a 45K25 be for light to medium or maybe medium leather sawing ?

[Evo160K]

Frankqv, Constabulary,

Thank you, I will try a larger needle.

Constabulary,

I do wrap the thread 1-1/2 times around the moving pulley wheel. Jimi set me straight on that. Thanks for mentioning it. I'll also ease both tensions a bit, but one at a time. Recently. I tested the fiberglass thread's strength with a fishing scale to a breaking strength of 12 pounds, that's close to a 92 thread and should easily handle an 8 ounce veg tanned leather. The way the thread is being chopped up in so many places, I don't think the thread is at fault.

hyttogpine,

Amazing is a good choice of words. Constabulary and many other experienced sewers on LW are a wealth of knowledge and experience, plus they're willing to help---great people. I wouldn't even attempt a restoration with out them.

I don't know enough about the 29-4 to answer your question. Others will need to jump in.

[Darren Brosowski]

Try running it with the needle bar a touch lower

[Frankqv]

Frankqv, Constabulary,Thank you, I will try a larger needle.Constabulary,I do wrap the thread 1-1/2 times around the moving pulley wheel. Jimi set me straight on that. Thanks for mentioning it. I'll also ease both tensions a bit, but one at a time. Recently. I tested the fiberglass thread's strength with a fishing scale to a breaking strength of 12 pounds, that's close to a 92 thread and should easily handle an 8 ounce veg tanned leather. The way the thread is being chopped up in so many places, I don't think the thread is at fault.hyttogpine,Amazing is a good choice of words. Constabulary and many other experienced sewers on LW are a wealth of knowledge and experience, plus they're willing to help---great people. I wouldn't even attempt a restoration with out them.I don't know enough about the 29-4 to answer your question. Others will need to jump in.

It's not the breaking strength of the thread,it's the thread diameter,the coefficient of friction going through the needle,

[Evo160K]

Thanks Frank,

The thread has a diameter of .015" (.39 mm). The thread has been breaking with 19 through 23 needles in 8 oz.. With a 24 needle, it sewed fine in 8 oz veg, but broke in 12 oz. With a 26 needle it sewed perfectly in both the 8 oz and 12 oz. What does that tell us?

Thanks Darren,

I will lower the needle bar a touch. What's your thinking there?

[Darren Brosowski]

Just a bit more free thread below the work. May not make a difference.

Depending on the behaviour of the thread raising the needle bar a touch may help

[SARK9]

With some of the material you need to sew in the machine, try to watch the loop being formed on the upstroke and see if the thread's behavior and its relationship to the hook suggests a possible cause for the "chopping" effect. It *sounds* a bit like the hook is clipping a squirrelly loop caused by some odd flexing properties this stuff may have. You may have to adjust the machine's clearances to the extent that your machine becomes "dedicated" for use with that one thread type. I "hear" is a bear to sew with properly, but I've never tried it.

The shards and sheds from fiberglass and kevlar type threads are incredibly abrasive, and will find their way into everything.

-DC

[Frankqv]

Thanks Frank,

The thread has a diameter of .015" (.39 mm). The thread has been breaking with 19 through 23 needles in 8 oz.. With a 24 needle, it sewed fine in 8 oz veg, but broke in 12 oz. With a 26 needle it sewed perfectly in both the 8 oz and 12 oz. What does that tell us?

Thanks Darren,

I will lower the needle bar a touch. What's your thinking there?

Two things

1) Is your bobbin set to tight.The knot is formed with a relationship between the bobbin ,top tension,more tension,more friction (chafing) going through the needle.

2) Is the fiberglass thread lubed. Poly and nylon bonded threads are pre lubed,The bigger the needle,larger hole,less friction when needle is coming up in the material,creating the knot.Remember the takeup lever is coming at at the same time which s actually tensioning the thread going through the needle,which allows the thread to knot as the needle comes up.By going up a needle size you confirmed it's chafing at the needle ,as you added more thickness you increased the friction,so you went up one more needle size,bigger hole less friction.

A little lube will go a long way in this instance.

Maybe this will help

http://www.wflake.com/thread/E-glass%20R783-Series.pdf

http://www.claremontcorporation.com/claretex-sewing-thread-fiberglass-yarns/

I went to titanium needles on my singer 153 and was able to sew all thread sizes withe a 1-2 size smaller needle. The nitrided Titanium is about 2 times slicker than chrome steel. Maybe?This shows advantages of titanium

http://www.superiorthreads.com/education/infographics/superior-needle/

Edited April 19, 2015 by Frankqv

[Evo160K]

Frank, Darren, Sark9,

Thank you for your thoughts. Being new to these fascinating old machines, I particularly appreciate every word you write.

Coincidently, Frank, the fiberglass thread I'm dealing with is from the w. f. lake company....excellent products. It's their R-753-24 that I'm using, and it does have a PTFE coating, it's supposed to reduce friction. Isn't PTFE the same as "Teflon." I can't envision using this thread any more, particularly in leather, but out of interest and curiosity want to understand what's making it break. The bonded poly and bonded nylon work fine.

When the wife returns with her iphone in a few days from visiting the grandkids, I'll shoot a video showing the machine, the loop and how the thread is breaking. It's an interesting puzzle!

With the bobbin tension, since it sews perfectly without material, would it change with material? I've contacted Superior threads about their titanium coated needles, thanks for the link, Frank. If they have system 328 needles, I'm going to buy a package. They say they're only $ .20 more than a regular needle.

SARK9, having a dedicated machine for a thread would be nice. I understand you professionals do that. Back when we were sewing safety clothing with fiberglass and Kevlar thread, we could justify only the one machine, the Claes 8345. As a side bar, our company was the first in the country to sew with Kevlar thread. Many years ago when we saw the Kevlar fabric in DuPont's booth at a trade show, we asked DuPont for some of the Kevlar thread and immediately passed it on to the Hy-Test safety shoe division of International Shoe Co to be tested in the Potroom and Ingot boots (read: molten metal) they were making for us for Aluminum Company of America, (Alcoa). The Kevlar thread turned out to be a huge success because of its high temperature and strength properties. It is hard on sewing machines however.

Thank you one and all.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Evo160K

[jimi]

Hi Al, could it be the twist on the thread??

[Evo160K]

Hi Jimi,

That's an excellent question, although somewhat above my pay grade. The spec sheet for the thread identifies it as a "Z" twist (Right Hand twist).

You no doubt know about twist. I looked it up on the Juki website, http://www.juki.com.sg/Libary/Knowledge_of_The_Sewing_Thread.pdf , and found:

Twist direction - Direction of twist is identified as S for left twist and Z for right twist. Most single needle lock stitch and other machines are designed for Z twist threads. S twist thread untwists during stitch formation.

Direction of twist does not affect the strength of the thread, but it can seriously impair its performance when it is used on a machine for which it is not suited.

Jimi, it's interesting the 45K manual you posted says best results are obtained by using LH twist in the needle and RH in the shuttle. That was probably written before poly and nylon thread were introduced.

What's your thinking on the matter?

Thanks Jimi.

Best regards,

Edited April 21, 2015 by Evo160K

[jimi]

Hi Al, Well i had a similar issue when i changed the nylon bonded from the spool to a wooden bobbin, i must have wound it on wrong so when it reached to the needle it was twisting too much and then breaking after the needle went down on it. otherwise you got the needle in back to front haha! but if it sews well on all other kinds of thread then great! i`ll bet in the end it is something reeeeal simple haha!. all the best jimi.