Neutralizing Vinegaroon Process?

[zaynexpetty]

Hey all,

I have been searching for a tried and true method of neutralizing vinegaroon, and most methods I have found seem to be kind of vague, leaving me with a couple of questions:

What is the ratio of baking soda to water? Does water temp matter at this stage?

How long to dip/leave the leather in the baking soda/water mixture (all I have read is "not too long". I have no idea what that means)?

I read that you need to oil the leather after you have bathed the vinegaroon dipped leather in the baking soda/water mixture, and then washed with warm, clean water in order to "bring life" back into the leather. I seem to have read (I think on cascity) that better results might have been had when applying oil before the leather had completely dried. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Also, I have made a black walnut dye, and the leather still has a strange smell after dried, would neutralizing using the same method be beneficial?

Thank you for any input!

Zayne

Edited December 9, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[TwinOaks]

The neutralizing with a baking soda solution is going to be directly subjective to how strong the 'roon is. And, without chemical analysis of each batch, that's a guessing game. I've had a batch that went black instantly, and others that only went gray. And, with some leathers, I've gotten BLUE as a result.

The 'rinse' solution I've used is 3 TBS of soda to 2 pints of warm water. It's just a quick dip, not a soaking, but that will depend on how quickly the leather took the vinegaroon. Oiling IS needed because the chemical reaction inside the leather pushes some of the oils and waxes out of the hide. You may notice an immediate water repelling effect with the 'roon, and that's the oils/waxes sitting on the surface. Conditioning the leather pushes those back into the leather. Failure to do so led to one belt (mine) developing surface cracks in the grain side.

[zaynexpetty]

The neutralizing with a baking soda solution is going to be directly subjective to how strong the 'roon is. And, without chemical analysis of each batch, that's a guessing game. I've had a batch that went black instantly, and others that only went gray. And, with some leathers, I've gotten BLUE as a result.

The 'rinse' solution I've used is 3 TBS of soda to 2 pints of warm water. It's just a quick dip, not a soaking, but that will depend on how quickly the leather took the vinegaroon. Oiling IS needed because the chemical reaction inside the leather pushes some of the oils and waxes out of the hide. You may notice an immediate water repelling effect with the 'roon, and that's the oils/waxes sitting on the surface. Conditioning the leather pushes those back into the leather. Failure to do so led to one belt (mine) developing surface cracks in the grain side.

Thank you for the quick response.

My vinegaroon blackens the leather really quickly, and with just one coat (when brushed on). Would you recommend more than 3 TBS of baking soda to the same amount of water?

I do understand that oils need to be set back into the leather after applying vinegaroon, but I was just curious if anyone can confirm that oiling the leather before it had completely dried after the neutralizing bath and rinse worked better/saved time? I'm pretty sure that one of the highly respected members of the cascity forum did that and had great results. Everything else I have read says to wait until the leather has completely dried before applying any oil.

[anhurset]

I use warm water to neutralize, as close to body temperature as I can get it, it helps the baking soda dissolve and seems to keep it more evenly suspended in the water. For most of my projects I use the same 6 quart bucket to neutralize in and I use a heaping tablespoon of baking soda, an actual measuring spoon tablespoon.

I don't really time how long I leave things in the neutralizer, usually I'm dying multiple things at once, as I remove each piece from the vinegaroon I allow the excess to run off then place it the in the neutralizer and remove the previous piece, I would guess each piece stays in around 30-40 seconds. I mainly use 5-6oz and 7-8oz leather, if I'm working with thinner or thicker weights I'll adjust the soak time accordingly, but I never go over a full minute. I rinse everything at once following the order that the pieces were removed from the neutralizer. I prefer rinsing in hot water, the neutralizer leaves a "slick" residue on the leather and I find that the hot water removes it faster.

I've never had success with oiling while still wet or damp, I always get the best results by oiling after it's completely dry. The few times that I have oiled while damp I've had to go back a few days later and re-oil.

The best way to get rid of the walnut smell is heat and sunlight, setting the piece(s) in a warm sunny spot for a few days will take the smell down to a level that is more acceptable. The smell will eventually go away on its own, it takes around 4-6 weeks, but sunlight and heat will speed it up.

[BDAZ]

You may see bubbles forming when the leather is placed in the baking soda. That's the reaction wit the acid. I am starting to sour (no pun intended) on vinegaroon for commercial projects. I had one item returned because the black morphed to a deep brown. In addition it requires huge amounts of oil to restore the leather, lots more time and I never get the same finish as on a spray dyed leather. Cost wise, I think it's cheaper to spray dye than using Vinegaroon.

Cya!

Bob

Edited December 9, 2014 by BDAZ

[cgleathercraft]

I have yet to find an exact recipe with measurements for everything. I don't think of it as right or wrong, just as this works for me but may not for others.

My process with clean dry leather (no prior oiling):

Mix up the roon with some scrap -> dip leather till it's black -> allow excess to drip off -> neutralize (have to get a feel for it, see below) -> rinse (warm or cold water, depends on how it feels)-> let dry(might be grey, black, or blue as mentioned above) -> apply neatsfoot oil -> finish

my neutralizing solution is "by the seat of my pants". Dumped baking soda into a large glass bowl. added water till I could dip or run the leather through it. I do not let the leather sit too long as i've read that baking soda can be harmful to it. No idea if the claims are true but better safe than sorry.

[TwinOaks]

Re: sitting in the baking soda too long... Leather has a slightly acidic pH level. IIRC, it's what helps the leather resist rotting. If you over soak the leather in a soda bath, you can take it from 'slightly acidic' to 'alkaline', which usually results in the leather getting damaged much more quickly than it should.

[cgleathercraft]

Re: sitting in the baking soda too long... Leather has a slightly acidic pH level. IIRC, it's what helps the leather resist rotting. If you over soak the leather in a soda bath, you can take it from 'slightly acidic' to 'alkaline', which usually results in the leather getting damaged much more quickly than it should.

Thanks for the explanation! Chemistry was fun but I didn't find it intriguing enough keep up with it after school.

[anhurset]

The only time I've had vinegaroon turn brown was on a bad hide, the surface disintegrated and the leather took on a dark brown color. I thought it was the vinegaroon that caused the problem until I had a similar reaction with spirit dye on the same hide. The only other issue I've had with vinegaroon was a batch which I essentially depleted of its iron which gave a very dark brown color with a blue cast to it and it was fairly obvious that the color was off before oiling. That depleted batch is the reason I always keep a couple of jugs brewing, just in case.

Those bubbles aren't an acceptable guide for the neutralizer, as stated above by Twinoaks, leather has a slightly acidic ph, if you wait until those bubbles stop you've damaged the leather.

I guess price is subjective? I can pay $45+ for a gallon of dye and then pay the $25 HLF on top of the shipping, then spend two+ hours dying, buffing and sealing. Or I can buy a gallon of vinegar, a pack of 0000 steel wool and a box of baking soda (total cost $8) put maybe an hour of work into making the dye and spend roughly 20 minutes dying and oiling each item. The vinegaroon is cheap, traditional and effective, yes there can be complications at times, but based on the mountains of "help me I can't dye" posts on this forum, spirit and oil dyes have issues too.

[BDAZ]

The only time I've had vinegaroon turn brown was on a bad hide, the surface disintegrated and the leather took on a dark brown color. I thought it was the vinegaroon that caused the problem until I had a similar reaction with spirit dye on the same hide. The only other issue I've had with vinegaroon was a batch which I essentially depleted of its iron which gave a very dark brown color with a blue cast to it and it was fairly obvious that the color was off before oiling. That depleted batch is the reason I always keep a couple of jugs brewing, just in case.

Those bubbles aren't an acceptable guide for the neutralizer, as stated above by Twinoaks, leather has a slightly acidic ph, if you wait until those bubbles stop you've damaged the leather.

I guess price is subjective? I can pay $45+ for a gallon of dye and then pay the $25 HLF on top of the shipping, then spend two+ hours dying, buffing and sealing. Or I can buy a gallon of vinegar, a pack of 0000 steel wool and a box of baking soda (total cost $8) put maybe an hour of work into making the dye and spend roughly 20 minutes dying and oiling each item. The vinegaroon is cheap, traditional and effective, yes there can be complications at times, but based on the mountains of "help me I can't dye" posts on this forum, spirit and oil dyes have issues too.

The leather was fine and the item turned a really dark brown from blue black. Obviously not the same problem you had with what was apparently a poorly tanned hide. The customer decided she actually preferred the color and kept the item.

The bubbles can appear immediate if at all and are most likely the reaction of the residual vinegaroon and the bicarbonate. I did not suggest that one wait for the bubbles to stop, however I don't buy your "damaged leather" assumption.

I find that for production work, if I am not using drum dyed, I spray two coats of stain diluted 50/50, takes about 5 minutes, a light oil, another couple of minutes then resolene 2 minutes and a spray wax finish of about 30 seconds. Total time under ten minutes. With vinegaroon the same product required significantly longer dry times, 3 or 4 heavy oilings, which is not inexpensive, and a lot of rubbing and waiting. I would guess 5 times as much time and effort as a spray coat of dye. In addition I buy my Feibings locally so no transportation and hazmat charges and cost per item is a fraction of what I spend on oil, even Costoco EVOO. No cost saving what so ever, unless of course, you work for free. I don't.

Again I find the long (5-10 minutes) soak in Vinegaroon stiffens the leather and requires a lot more finishing work. Not cost effective.

I do use it for "hobby projects" because it's fun to home brew.

Cya!

Bob

[zaynexpetty]

I use warm water to neutralize, as close to body temperature as I can get it, it helps the baking soda dissolve and seems to keep it more evenly suspended in the water. For most of my projects I use the same 6 quart bucket to neutralize in and I use a heaping tablespoon of baking soda, an actual measuring spoon tablespoon.

I don't really time how long I leave things in the neutralizer, usually I'm dying multiple things at once, as I remove each piece from the vinegaroon I allow the excess to run off then place it the in the neutralizer and remove the previous piece, I would guess each piece stays in around 30-40 seconds. I mainly use 5-6oz and 7-8oz leather, if I'm working with thinner or thicker weights I'll adjust the soak time accordingly, but I never go over a full minute. I rinse everything at once following the order that the pieces were removed from the neutralizer. I prefer rinsing in hot water, the neutralizer leaves a "slick" residue on the leather and I find that the hot water removes it faster.

I've never had success with oiling while still wet or damp, I always get the best results by oiling after it's completely dry. The few times that I have oiled while damp I've had to go back a few days later and re-oil.

The best way to get rid of the walnut smell is heat and sunlight, setting the piece(s) in a warm sunny spot for a few days will take the smell down to a level that is more acceptable. The smell will eventually go away on its own, it takes around 4-6 weeks, but sunlight and heat will speed it up.

Why is it that I can never get a more in-depth and thorough response than the ones you give?? Haha.

I will have to give this a go.

Thanks again!

[anhurset]

The leather was fine and the item turned a really dark brown from blue black. Obviously not the same problem you had with what was apparently a poorly tanned hide. The customer decided she actually preferred the color and kept the item.

The bubbles can appear immediate if at all and are most likely the reaction of the residual vinegaroon and the bicarbonate. I did not suggest that one wait for the bubbles to stop, however I don't buy your "damaged leather" assumption.

I find that for production work, if I am not using drum dyed, I spray two coats of stain diluted 50/50, takes about 5 minutes, a light oil, another couple of minutes then resolene 2 minutes and a spray wax finish of about 30 seconds. Total time under ten minutes. With vinegaroon the same product required significantly longer dry times, 3 or 4 heavy oilings, which is not inexpensive, and a lot of rubbing and waiting. I would guess 5 times as much time and effort as a spray coat of dye. In addition I buy my Feibings locally so no transportation and hazmat charges and cost per item is a fraction of what I spend on oil, even Costoco EVOO. No cost saving what so ever, unless of course, you work for free. I don't.

Again I find the long (5-10 minutes) soak in Vinegaroon stiffens the leather and requires a lot more finishing work. Not cost effective.

I do use it for "hobby projects" because it's fun to home brew.

Cya!

Bob

I was simply attempting to curtail people misinterpreting your statement about the bubbles as a gauge for neutralizing, as to the color issue with vinegaroon you will note that I also suggested that it could have been due to a weak mixture.

And yes, it does seem that price is subjective, not everyone lives close enough to a leather supplier to avoid the HLF, also not all leather workers have the room to devote to a spray area. For me it's easier to drop an item into my vinegaroon bucket and set the timer to five minutes. Waiting for things to dry is an integral part of leather work, if a customer can wait for me to hand stitch a piece then they can wait for an item to dry properly.

Why is it that I can never get a more in-depth and thorough response than the ones you give?? Haha.

I will have to give this a go.

Thanks again!

No problem. Those aren't set measurements though, the strength of the vinegar in your vinegaroon may call for some adjustments. Edited December 10, 2014 by anhurset

[BDAZ]

Waiting for things to dry is an integral part of leather work, if a customer can wait for me to hand stitch a piece then they can wait for an item to dry properly.

Not worried about the customer waiting, it's my time that is critical. If I can save time in the finishing process I can be more productive, keep my prices lower and sell more product, As I mentioned, this is not a hobby for some of us and I cost my time at $25 an hour of actual working time.

I also suggested that it could have been due to a weak mixture.

Actually the mixture was fine but I suspect the immersion time should have been a bit longer. It was probably only a couple of minutes, however, I do my dipping on my patio / spray booth / wood shop where it was well over 100F at the time. So both making and using vinegaroon is a faster process. Might have just been the result of the high temperatures. Wet forming takes minutes!

Cya!

Bob

Edited December 10, 2014 by BDAZ

[ChuckBurrows]

The bubbles can appear immediate if at all and are most likely the reaction of the residual vinegaroon and the bicarbonate. I did not suggest that one wait for the bubbles to stop, however I don't buy your "damaged leather" assumption.

As noted bark/veg tan is by nature on the acidic side of the scale (about 4.5 - 7.0 is neutral), So you will get bubbles even if not using vinegar black. As for the "damaged leather" assumption - it is not an assumption at all, it is fact based on 45+ years of experience. Leave the leather too long in the baking soda will cause alkali burn which ruins the leather and that's a fact based in science as well as long experience. Leave leather in a baking soda bath even without using vinegar black for too long will turn it almost blacj and very brittle. A fairly weak - a 1/8 cup to a half gallon of water - baking soda mix and then just a quick but thorough dip into the BS mix is all that is needed to set the color.

[BDAZ]

Chuck, you were responding to the wrong response: The damaged I was referring to was:

Anhurset: The only time I've had vinegaroon turn brown was on a bad hide, the surface disintegrated and the leather took on a dark brown color.

I only dip for 20-30 seconds then rinse in warm water. There are many folks that don't bother with no apparent issues.

Cya!

Bob

[jrny4wrd]

If I were to use eco flo on parts of a project and use vinagaroon on others, what do u feel would be the best method to neutralize the vinegaroon?

[BDAZ]

Wouldn't work because vinegaroon needs to penetrate into the leather and it would spread..

Cya!

Bob

[jrny4wrd]

So, your saying painting with vinegaroon is not effective because it does not soak in enough, or am I taking that wrong.

[Walstr]

I've seen mentioned here a few times, that a 'dark brown' color resulted from 'depleted' Vinegaroon. I desire a dark brown color, naturally, but my home brewed Walnut Husk broth doesn't get there.

I made my first qt. batch of Vinegroon. I small test piece [hopefully to be my 1st CAS rig] turned dark grey after an hour, then pure black after neutralizing, exciting to see what I done did! Now the experiments begin...

I'm going to add 1/8 tsp Vinegaroon to a cup of Walnut broth & look for my dark brown color, then add a little more Vinegroon for next test, etc.

Anyone have a more successful recipe for home brewed dark brown dye? Thanks.

Just getting started,

Wally