Do These Parts Do What I Assume?

[cleanview]

Lots of testing and I think I know but am sure could be enlightened as well. I assume the following parts do this.

1. Adjusts the tension on the top thread

2. Affects the knot and when it is. This one is confusing. I read and hear different things about what i does.

3. Bobbin thread tension.

I had to pull some stitches the other day and observed the bobbin thread had actually made some cuts in the leather. Is this normal? or, does it automatically mean that bobbin thread is to tight?

I am making a lot of progress with the machine, but to me it just makes things easier if I understand the machine better. And my understanding started at 0.

[TwinOaks]

1 AND 2 AND 3 control the tension....which controls where the knot is. I'll explain....

The tension on the bobbin should be pretty close to 'right' if the machine was set up by a dealer. It just controls how tightly the bobbin tries to hold onto the thread. The hook grabs the loop of your top thread (when the needle is rising) and wraps it around the bobbin. Then, the take up arm - the silver arm in the long slot facing the camera - pulls UP on the thread. When it does that, it's pulling on BOTH the thread that's in the leather and from the thread that's on the spool. So, 1 controls the thread from the spool, 2 controls the thread in the stitch. They should be fairly close to the same so that while the knot (formed when the top thread is wrapped around the bobbin) is being pulled up and into the leather, enough thread for the next knot is being pulled from the spool. If 1 is less than 2, you'll simply pull thread from the spool and never pull the knot into the leather. If 1 is more than 2, you'll pull the knot through the leather....unless you increase 3. Having 3 too tight might be what's causing the cuts in the leather. So....adjust 3 so that it has about a pound of smooth tension when you pull thread directly from it.(remember it should be close to 'right' from the factory) then adjust 1 and 2 at the same time so that the bottom thread and knot are pulled into the leather, but not so far that it pulls through to the top.

[TwinOaks]

While I haven't done much experimenting with multiple thread sizes (I'm only using two sizes) there are several members that have said that they can change thread size and NOT adjust the tensions at all. This is because despite the difference in thread size and the actual tension on the threads....the RATIO between the top and bottom tensions has stayed the same. On my Boss, I can run 277/277 or 277/207 with only change being 1/8th turn on the primary tensioner (closest to the needle) Or swap from 277/277 to 207/207 with no adjustments at all.....unless I change the thickness of leather.

example: for 277 thread, top and bottom, the bobbin is set at 1lb. the top tension is set at 1.3lbs, which lets the top thread pull the bobbin thread up.

If you drop down to size 96 thread, the tensions may be .6lb on the bottom and .9 on the top...but as long as the ratio remains the same, the stitch still looks good and functions as it should. ****I just plugged in arbitrary numbers, I don't know what the actual #s are****

Consider the thread without leather - it's simply getting the top tension to pull slightly more than the bottom tension in a set amount of space. The stronger the top tension is in comparison to the bottom tension, the more it will lift the knot in that set space. Now, when you add the leather, you are determining what that space is.

[cleanview]

Finally, I get it.

As a teacher, I have seen no greater joy than the look on a face when I know that they got it for the first time.

You can't see that look on my face, from this forum interaction, but it's there.

Thank you for the time it took to explain that

[TwinOaks]

You're most welcome; I'm glad to be able to help

[cleanview]

You're most welcome; I'm glad to be able to help

upon investigating this morning I find that part no. 1 has zero affect on the thread. in these pictures is there a reason visible? I can tighten all the way down and there is no resistance at all.

I dont think this is normal but I dont know. The only things I have "played with are the nuts to adjustments, nothing else.

[TwinOaks]

That tensioner is put together incorrectly. The two discs should be touching, as that's where the tension comes from. I'm not sure why they're separated like that, but they shouldn't be. You'll need to remove either the post that holds the tensioner discs, or that bracket that's separating them, to correct the problem. Based on the apparent height in the picture, I think that both should be under the bracket. Please TEST FIT things before tightening things back down. I'll add a pic of how the discs should look in just a few minutes.

This is just how the discs should be. Refer to threading instructions from other users of the 441 type machines for whether you should just go between the discs (like it's shown), or use a full wrap around it. Youtube, and more than a few posts here on LW discuss that.

[TwinOaks]

I really wish there was a 'tagging' feature here.....

I just looked and in the Al Bane instructional video, it looks like the discs ARE split by the bracket, but the techsew 5100 video shows them together....
I'm gonna PM some folks to see if they'll chime in on this one. This is where experience outweighs knowledge... please standby.

Bob Kovar threading that type machine:

[cleanview]

Appreciate it. I will work on this this afternoon. This is only one of a few things I have figures out were set up WRONG when I ordered it. Major frustrations that I should not have had to figure out.

[Red Cent]

The C4 discs are together. The brake pedal will separate the discs (just barely) allowing you to pull thread. Yours is radically wrong. I just looked at my C4. I am going to say your bracket arm that separates the discs is bent. That arm should be centered between the discs when it moves over to separate the discs. Is the arm in that position without using the right pedal? Super wrong if it is.

I was going to agree with TwinOaks, but if you look closer, the silver attachment is not interfering with the discs. That is the thead eyelet and it is not touching the discs.A closer look will show you the arm is bent and not doing its job.

Please take another picture or two from different angles

The 3200 has another tension point, I believe. Do you twist around and thread the post on top of the machine?

Edited December 14, 2014 by Red Cent