Problems With 441 Clone

[neke]

Hi,

Just received my 441 clone from Sieck, they call it Type 441 K ( http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/new-arrivals/details/5624/ ), and it should be with same specs as Cowboy CB3200.

I'm having severe problems to set it up. Attached are two pics showing current results, with and without thread and from both sides.

The needle is the one that came with the machine, and it should be Schmetz 794D. Thread is coded as P/B-4556-93 and it should be somewhat same thickness as 277 in US.

Any ideas what's going on and how to overcome?

[Constabulary]

Do you mean the round marking on the bottom side? You probably have too much pressure on the foot.

May I ask how much you have paid for the machine w/o shipping? Have you bought just the head or complete with motor table and speed reducer?

[JLSleather]

That actually doesn't look that far off. The circles would be a combination of foot pressure and "smooshy" leather (probably not possible to entirely eliminate this effect).

Beyond that, the holes look quite large for the thread... try larger thread or smaller needle.

[Northmount]

Once you get the right thread, needle and foot pressure combination, the backside will look a lot better. You can also tap the back side with a flat faced hammer to help smooth it out. Sometimes a little moisture before tapping the back helps. The backside never looks as good as the top side.

Tom

Also look at http://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html thread/needle chart suggestions.

[neke]

Hello,

Do you mean the round marking on the bottom side? You probably have too much pressure on the foot.

May I ask how much you have paid for the machine w/o shipping? Have you bought just the head or complete with motor table and speed reducer?

Bought it complete with table, motor and speed reducer. 1950€ + VAT. Without shipping.

That actually doesn't look that far off. The circles would be a combination of foot pressure and "smooshy" leather (probably not possible to entirely eliminate this effect).

Beyond that, the holes look quite large for the thread... try larger thread or smaller needle.

Have tried it on several pieces of leather with different thickness and quality, with same results..

Once you get the right thread, needle and foot pressure combination, the backside will look a lot better. You can also tap the back side with a flat faced hammer to help smooth it out. Sometimes a little moisture before tapping the back helps. The backside never looks as good as the top side.

Tom

Also look at http://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html thread/needle chart suggestions.

Yeah, I agree that the holes look too big for the thread.. The different standards mean trouble, nobody in here will understand the US sizes. For example, the thickest thread they sell for shoemakers is size 10, which is equivalent to a #277, but they didn't have that in white.. The thread I got is a bit thicker, with mystic code P/B-4556-93... I think it'd be easier to buy the needles & threads with same numbering system from Ebay... Also haven't yet found a dealer selling needles for 441s in Finland.

But thanks anyways, I'll try to find a smaller needle and try with that. The quest is on.

Edited January 2, 2015 by neke

[Trevor]

Neke.

The thread that you are using looks like braided thread. I would never or not often use braided in a machine. Normal machine thread is laid or twisted thread. The "D" needle is too big as well. I use a 250 X 794 for M8 or Tex350 but if you have smaller thread then definitely a smaller needle.

Also a "D" is a horrible point to use try getting some LR style 794's. And always use a smaller thread underneath.

There was a stitch style chart a couple of days ago someone posted. Have a look at the different styles that are available and try a different thread.

Good luck

Trevor

"Way Down Under"

[Constabulary]

For 794 needles check College Sewing in the UK

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/catalog/search.aspx?keywords=794

[neke]

Neke.

The thread that you are using looks like braided thread. I would never or not often use braided in a machine. Normal machine thread is laid or twisted thread. The "D" needle is too big as well. I use a 250 X 794 for M8 or Tex350 but if you have smaller thread then definitely a smaller needle.

Also a "D" is a horrible point to use try getting some LR style 794's. And always use a smaller thread underneath.

There was a stitch style chart a couple of days ago someone posted. Have a look at the different styles that are available and try a different thread.

Good luck

Trevor

"Way Down Under"

Hi Trevor.

The thread was sold to me specifically as a machine thread, and they apparently use it for saddlery work & saddle bags etc. that requires stronger thread. It has some kind of a core thread and top layer is siliconized for easier sewing through thick layers of leather.

[msdeluca]

The needle looks huge for the thread size. I agree with previous posters... smaller needle or thicker thread.

[Singermania]

Yes the lads are correct, your thread must really be slopping around in the eye of the needle, there are lots of downloadable needle/thread charts available on the net. regards

[neke]

Thanks for all, smaller needle did the trick. Also, it helped a lot when I received the correct feed dog and presser foot. For some reason, the machine was equipped with fabric foot & dog, and no alternative parts included...

[catskin]

As for the always use smaller thread on the bottom, That makes no sense your stitches are only as strong as the weakest thread so you are wasting good thread on top by putting weak thread on the bottom. To get good stitches use the same thread top and bottom. Just adjust your machine to work that way and you will have next to no trouble with thread tension or stitching even when you change thread sizes because they are proportionatly the same.

[Singermania]

Its normal practise to use one size lighter thread on the bottom, if I recall rightly some machine manuals like the Pearson no 6 will suggest this. So if on top you have 277 you'd go with 207 on the bottom and use a 200 LR needle, not aware of saddlers using the D here in Australia. I was only an upholsterer and motor and boat trimmer so pretty much always used the same thread top and bottom... so can only tell you what the saddlers and harness makers here do.

[catskin]

I have only 40 years of sewing harness so can't compare with you experts. But what I do know is I seem to have a lot less trouble getting good stitches and even thread tensions then the people on here who are using different sizes top and bottom.

[Wizcrafts]

I almost always use the same size thread on top and bottom.

[Singermania]

OUCH... nobody including myself coming onto this forum would call themselves 'experts', what we are, are people prepared to give a little time to try to help, nobody gets paid, nobody is correct 100% of the time, these are opinions that we give, nobody want to get shot down. The reader can then take in all the 'offerings' and form their own view. Although I am not a saddler or harness maker, I buy and sell a lot of machines over a considerable range, people will either ask me or tell me what thread or threads should be in a particular machine, that was how I came to my opinion above. Regards Steve

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Some machines are made to run a size lighter thread on the bottom. It tells you right in the manual. With many items of horse equipment, the top side receives more wear/friction, so using a heavier thread on the top side makes sense. Also, with an item such as a harness trace, you can channel your bottom side if using a machine that will take a channeler, and the lighter thread lays in the channel better. Being completely hidden, the thread will not wear through until the surface of the leather wears to the level of the bottom of the channel. That's a LOT of wear, and most harness doesn't get used that heavily today. It just depends on which machine I'm using at any given time, and what I'm sewing. Sometimes I use the same size top and bottom, sometimes a size lighter on the bottom. I say there's no hard and fast rule, and I'm not an expert. Just 23 years in the harness and saddlery business full time, and over 35 since picking up my first tool. However, I'll be the first to admit, years don't mean anything if you've been doing something wrong all those years:-)

[Wizcrafts]

There are a lot of times when I use a size smaller on the bottom. One in particular is on 9 - 10 oz belts when I add decorative edge stitching. I'll use 207 on the bottom and 277 on top. Once I get to a quarter inch I usually run the same size on both sides, for added strength per stitch. This is especially true for the holsters I sew. I go out of my way to tell the customer how many pounds of strength each stitch possesses.

[catskin]

Okay you guys are right, it depends on the job. But I do stand by the fact it seems to me that I have a LOT less trouble getting good stitches and rarely have to touch thread tensions when changing thickness of leather or thread sizes compared to the people on here that keep asking how to make good stitches when they are using different thread sizes.

I was just letting it be known that there are some of us that can and DO get good results with same sizes top and bottom. I can go from 138 to 346 on my cowboy 4500 without touching thread tensions and get good tight stitches. I guess some people understand their machines better then others, just as I could not carve a piece if my life depended on it and some could do it with their eyes closed.

[Darren Brosowski]

With an open frame shuttle I tend to have less problem balancing tensions with the same size threads but in Australia the general rule amongst saddlers is to run one size smaller on the bottom.

Theories on sewing vary from country to country and person to person. My personal opinion is that you are going to run into lots of wear problems using bonded nylon rather than High Tenacity Polyester but what would I know when I have to repair the damage to machines every day.

[catskin]

I am sorry that I offended some of you by referring to you as experts. By doing that I meant to let you know that I feel many of you have experience in more areas then I do. While at the same time in 40 years I have learned a few things that work for me and some that DO NOT. From my experience using thinner thread on the bottom the stitches will come undone much easier since the hole is 2 sizes to big for the thinner thread. When I use the same tread top and bottom back stitching is much less important at beginning and ending because the bottom thread is as tight in the hole as the top one. I have things sewn 25 years ago that had no back stitching at beginning or ending and not one stitch has worked out after 25 years of use. While I have had lots of things brought to me to fix where thinner thread was used on bottom and the stitches have worked out in a few months use. This what I base my opinions on. These are opinions I have formed from MY experience Others may differ.

[Tramps Leatherworking]

The ONLY reason I ever use a smaller bottom thread is when I am using thread that is at the limit of what my machines will sew --- the largest thread my current machine will accept on the bottom is 207, but I can use 277 on the top with a #24 needle...

[rjqhall]

Hi Neke,

How have you been getting on with your machine? I'm very close to purchasing the same model from Seick and having it shipped to the UK. Would you mind posting a photo of the bottom side again with a smaller needle with thread and without thread .

Many thanks!

Ross