are you shopping this christmas

[jbird]

no one has to refrain from discusion we are all vauled members of this fourm, and we can have a discusion on any thing one would hope but with out degrading any class of people showing respect for every one. Because we all spend are money the way we think is best and very few are going to blow there money on lottery tickets. This a place were the leather comunity needs to pull together and give are vauled advice to each other and good frendliy discusion is what we need.

Josh

[ttownfire]

......."The first thing to understand is that all Money Is Debt. You create money by taking out a loan, and you destroy money by paying that loan back, and you destroy even more future lending capacity by defaulting".......

Well, I didn't study econ but even I know that all money is not debt. If I EARN money and put it in the bank, it's NOT debt, it's MONEY, cash. And if the guy that paid me the money had to take out a loan to do it, then, yeah, maybe that's debt, but in most cases, he didn't. He worked and was paid that money himself. There is, of course, a lot of debt out there, and in that respect, you're right. All that debt is, in fact, debt and a lot of folks have been living pretty high off the hog for a long time on all that debt but that's about to come to a screeching halt.

True, it's a very complex subject but let's not make it even more difficult to understand by saying things like "all money is debt". It's not. Money represents work, life energy, worth. Debt is created by the absence of money. If I don't have money, I must borrow it and thus I have created debt for myself. I haven't created money, I have created debt. The money theoretically already existed in some form and merely changed hands.

Sorry senor... You are free to call money/debt/credit anything you want. It will not change the fact that it is what it is.

Credit (debt) and money are fungible - they spend identically in the economy. Can a store tell the difference between a $50 dollar bill and $50 dollars of credit? NO, other than physical properties and other agreements there is NO difference. The $50 bill or credit spends the exact same. That is because the $50 dollar bill IS in fact credit (debt); it is a bond of indefinite duration carrying zero interest written against the aggregate wealth and production of The United States.

I'm not trying to over-complicate things, they are what they are. As a country we need to pull our collective heads out of the sand and learn. We have been duped into thinking financial markets are overly complicated, the powers that be want you kept in the dark.

[celticleather]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[Hilly]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

In laymans' terms, please?

[UKRay]

Nice summing up Michael, I enjoy an articulate man's opinion - and good on you, Josh; IMHO that is exactly what the forum is about.

..and was that another 1p worth from you CL? - Ole' Josh is going to end up a rich man at this rate! (oops...)

[jwwright]

townfire...........Thanks for your knowledge shared.

GotoTex...........I won't get involved in the political side of it here, because it would be pointless. I don't think anyone's mind would be changed. I will say that you are sure right about Ebay right now. I usually sell several quality used saddles on Ebay each year, along with some bit and spur trading I do. I also have sold 2 new saddles I made on Ebay this year. Right now...........Ebay is super slow for anything of good quality, and carrying the appropriate price tag. The low quality / price stuff is always there. I have visited with several other saddle & gear makers that have also seen new orders slowing down.......some more than others. I think folks are just scared to spend their extra money on big ticket items right now........thinking they sure might need that extra cash for necessities in the near future.

Gotta get back to the shop, and keep trying to make a living in this Republican economy.......hehehe. JW

[jbird]

Nice summing up Michael, I enjoy an articulate man's opinion - and good on you, Josh; IMHO that is exactly what the forum is about.

..and was that another 1p worth from you CL? - Ole' Josh is going to end up a rich man at this rate! (oops...)

Wait Ray let me get my calculater and see what the total is LOL.

P.S. I am never going to live that one down.

Josh

[Go2Tex]

Sorry senor... You are free to call money/debt/credit anything you want. It will not change the fact that it is what it is.

Credit (debt) and money are fungible - they spend identically in the economy. Can a store tell the difference between a $50 dollar bill and $50 dollars of credit? NO, other than physical properties and other agreements there is NO difference. The $50 bill or credit spends the exact same. That is because the $50 dollar bill IS in fact credit (debt); it is a bond of indefinite duration carrying zero interest written against the aggregate wealth and production of The United States.

I'm not trying to over-complicate things, they are what they are. As a country we need to pull our collective heads out of the sand and learn. We have been duped into thinking financial markets are overly complicated, the powers that be want you kept in the dark.

And you are also free to call it anything you want if it makes it easier for you to understand how it all works, but as you just said, all money is ultimately backed up by hard wealth, gold at Fort Knox. So, credit/debt and cash may spend the same but unless you get your credit/debt interest free, it is NOT the same. It's actually worth less because you have to pay extra to spend it. In that respect they are not equal and therefore not the same.

For the life of me I can't figure out why calling all money debt makes the mess more clear. But that's just me.

As for degrading anyone's class or social status Jbird...... Look, merely pointing out that folks who live off the public dole generally don't make wise spending decisions with the money they're given is just a well established fact of life. If that offends, then I'm sorry. The truth hurts sometimes. But that's why I don't like Comrad Uncle Samski coming after me for more of mine to spread around. I believe in a hand up, not a hand out.

Anyhow, gotta go make a beer run..........

[Hilly]

In answer to the original question in this thread: No, I don't intend on doing much if any shopping this Christmas. The in-laws have decided to not buy gifts this year, but the entire clan always gets together for a huge feed and a most wonderful day of celebration of the holidays.

My side of the relation is very small, and I can make everyone something they will like and use this year. To tell the truth, my side of the family has had past Christmas' where the only gifts allowed have been something hand made. Whether it's just a batch of someone's favorite cookies, to home decor items, to wearables, to practical stuff, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you put something of yourself into your work. We're all so sick and tired of the commercialism of Christmas that we've decided not to participate in that aspect of it any more. We've even gone so far as to use brown paper for gift wrap and hand made gift tags.

I also feel that Christmas doesn't just have to be in December. My husband and I often give each other little gifts all year long "just because". Does this mean we're just getting Scroogey in our old age?

Okay, let me get off my soap box now.

Hilly

[jbird]

Hilly I am of the same mind as you in my family we do a lot the same as you.

Josh