Here's The Deuce

[rktaylor]

Well, I just finished my second saddle. It's on a 14.5" Bowden BWBR tree that finished at about 13.74". It has 13" swells and a 4x13 cantle. It's mostly 10-11 oz. Hermann Oak with some heavier skirting in places. It weighs in at 28.75 lbs with no cinch. As I posted earlier, I wanted the saddle to be as light as possible (spouse request). It's about 6 lbs heavier than the saddle she currently uses, but there just isn't much in that saddle. I believe it was Bob Brenner who said 28 lbs was about the lightest I could get without scrimping on methods and material.

I wanted to do something different with this saddle (relative to the first) so I could learn. The in-skirt rigging was fun, but a bit of a challenge for a novice like me in that I didn't have any educational material to study. I think it's pretty solid and I like the way it went together. The Cheyenne Roll and welts on the fork were also something new to me (really everything is new to me). I would say that there are very few pieces on this saddle that were the first attempt.

Thanks to everyone who provided advice along the way. It was extremely important to me even if I didn't use it. Now I need to get back on the Will James I am building for me. Then I would like to build another one of these so I can fix some of my mistakes. Someday, I would like to build one with a master looking over my shoulder shaking his/her head.

These are the Glamour Shots. Comments, suggestions, and scathing critiques are welcomed. If you would like a close up of a certain area let me know. I have some less glamorous pictures that I may post in Saddle Construction to point out what I think went wrong to cause them.

Randy

[rdl123]

Randy,

I am not qualified to comment so I won't...But I can see definite progress from your first saddle so good job!

Regards,

Ron L

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Nice job Randy. Yea 28 lbs is about all you can get down to, and still have a good saddle that will last. There are still a couple of paces you could get another lb or so out. but; then there is a place or two that you would add it back in, so, at the end of the day 28 lbs is where you end up. once again, nice job.

Bob

[oltoot]

Well done, I would make one suggestion based on a lot of repairing and observing heavy use, Dont 'dome' the rivits. In a place like that, exposed to constant wear, the heads will eventually (very long term) wear off and when it comes time to reline, they might have to be drilled out and replaced by a bigger size. Along the same line; hard to see so maybe not even a potential but same principal applies to inside edge of front rigging ring/dee/plate. Problem averted by putting a thick filler in between skirt and top piece that fits inside ring/dee/plate so that a 'hump' that invites wear is not created. Let me emphasize that it takes a long time for this to show itself so even a young wife ( as most are) may not bring the amount of wear to bear in her remaining (may they be many) riding years but, In Pursuit of Perfection.

[rktaylor]

Ron,

It is probably hard to judge from photos, but if you put this one and the first side by side any sane person would pick this one. It's definitely a learning process and I still have a long way to go, but it's been a fun journey so far.

Bob,

I think it would be tough to get another half pound out of it and still have a decent saddle. I chose the Mother Hubbard style skirts/rigging because I thought it would be lighter. Given another chance, I would use rear jockeys. I think they would make the back look cleaner and be easier to build.

Oltoot,

I knew you were going to comment on the rivets and I don't doubt you for a second. In my defense, they aren't domed too much. I just tried to curl the edges some, so there is still a fairly flat surface. It may be a weak argument, but with the projected use and my young wife's age those rivets will be someone else's problem. I did plug around (probably 1.5" or so) and inside the rigging hardware, so that should wear fine.

Thanks for all the comments. When it warms up some I will cinch it on a horse.

Randy

[Tramps Leatherworking]

I know nothing about saddles unless they are on V-Twin Iron Horses, but it looks pretty good to me...

[CWR]

Randy,

Really nice job. I have a vary minor critique, burnish the billet slot. I know you won't be able to see much of it when the billet is added but the top will still be visible. It just jumped out at me when i saw it. The rest of your edges look nice so it makes it show even more. Look forward to seeing the Will James.

CW

Edited January 8, 2015 by CWR

[rktaylor]

Thanks Tramp. I know nothing about V-Twins so maybe we're even there.

Nice catch CW. I saw that after posting the photos. I am not planning to have a billet, so it's even more important to get it burnished.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

Your latest work looks good. The design looks clean, and your stamping looks good and thought out well. To reduce weight a smaller diameter horn and smaller cap. I didn't see the type of stirrup leather buckles you used, but Superior buckles are a feeewww ounces less than Blevins. One feature I think you may need to work on is your seat. It appears that your center of gravity is just a little too far back, and the slope moving up to your hand hole appears a little steep.

Keep up the excellent work.

Ron

[rktaylor]

Ron,

Thanks for the comments. I used Blevins buckles, but like you say we are talking ounces at this point. But take a few ounces out and pretty soon you are at a pound.

I delayed my reply because I have been looking at a lot of seats since you posted. I am thinking about buying Cary Schwarz's DVD on ground seats. Anyway, I think (and the key word is think) I get it. I do believe I have placed the rider a further back than I should have. I don't think it's too steep for the way it's formed, but if I moved the rider forward it probably would be. I also think I need some improvement near the cantle points (as well as many other places).

The saddle feels pretty comfortable on the stand. When it warms up a bit, I'll cinch it on a horse and see how the wife likes it.

I am getting back to work on my Will James today and am really taking a hard look at my ground seat, before I start working on my riggings.

Thanks again for making me think and study. It's good for the mind.

Randy

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

I only mentioned the seat pocket because it was taught to me by Al Gould, the saddle instructor for the Leather Show in Prescott, to position the riders center of gravity over the stirrups. The seat pocket should be approximately between the stirrup leather grooves on the bars and the front of the cantle starting point.

Also, I purchased Cary Schwarz's cd for saddle making steps, and even though I like his work and style, Watt's cd is easier to follow. I don't think I have any tapes, CDs, or books that really give a lot of attention on how to really lay in a comfortable seat and it's placement. I think that's a technique the maker has to perfect.

Ron

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Randy, just a thought. Years ago, when I first started out making saddles, I wanted to do so for many reasons, one of which was that I wanted to have a saddle that was as comfortable as an old Ryon I had. I made templates of that saddle, front to back. and side to side so I could replicate that seat. They have served me well, I have never had a customer that was dissatisfied with my seats. I attribute that to those templates. I use them on both metal strainer and leather ground seats.

Just sayin"

Bob

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Cantle binding and welts both look good for only your second saddle. I've seen guys who have made 50 or more saddles and STILL can't get the welts right. There is so much more information out there now than when I started building. Good job. One of the most apparent things to me at first look is your skirt pattern. It needs a little cleaning up. But I know all too well that sometimes that pattern looks ok and then when you look at it from a distance after everything's finished you say to yourself "What the hell???" It looks not quite balanced. I would shorten it up just a bit in front. The saddle has a relatively small seat size and small and shallow skirt pattern, and I just think shortening it up in front would balance it out. Also, there is a "point" on the rear of the skirt where the transition or curve from vertical to horizontal was not evened out. I'll spend a lot of time looking at the skirt from half way across the shop and from different angles before I cut a stitch groove, because once you do that, you're committed. Have the skirt on the tree when you do this. Keep us up to date on the Will James. I have one on the way.

[rktaylor]

Ron,

I appreciate you mentioning it, because the ground seat is the sculpted part of the saddle. The Cary Schwarz DVD I mentioned is called "The Ground Seat" and is produced by the Traditional Cowboy Arts Association. I think it's $45 on Amazon. I patched a triangular piece of leather in my Will James over the weekend to move the low point on the seat forward. I don't think it's as far forward as it should be, but it's a lot better. I am starting to see the triangle bicycle seat that is often mentioned. I would like to go to Prescott, but it's not in the budget this year.

Thanks again,

Randy

[rktaylor]

Bob,

I have thought about getting a good profile gauge and modeling a good seat. I guess since you did it that just means is was another good idea that I didn't act on. When I look at most of the saddles in my tack room, I am reminded of a statement from Stohlman's book regarding using poor saddles to learn construction. Basically, you can't learn how to make a good saddle, if all you do is look at poorly constructed saddles. I have a friend who recently purchased a really nice saddle. I may profile the seat on it.

Take care,

Randy

[rktaylor]

Big Sioux,

Thanks for the compliments. Those aren't the 50th welts, but they aren't the first either. They're just the first ones I kept. The skirts were modeled after the saddle this is intended to replace (reference comment to Bob above about what to copy). They don't look too out of balance to me, but I can see your point. I think they actually may have ended up a little shallower in the rear after I blocked them. The skirts on the reference saddle are not blocked. I see what you are talking about on the back of the skirts. I think the rear of the skirts gets straight too soon and the straight edge is to long. I hear Jeremiah Watt echoing in my ear, "There are no straight lines on a round skirt saddle." I'll do better on the Will James.

You are right, there is a lot of educational material available. Some is really good, some is ok and some not so good. I have a little of all three categories. What I use most are the Stohlman books, Watt DVD, Harry Adams' book, and this forum (in no particular order).

Try to stay warm up in SD.

Randy

[rdl123]

Randy,

I see there is some discussion about ground seats...I agree that it is the one area of saddle building that is the most subjective and I believe it is probably, on working saddles at least, what really sets one maker apart from the other more than anything else...

I believe everyone will have a slightly different take on what is comfortable / functional depending on riding style, body type, leg length etc.

I have found Steve Brewer's how to on this site very helpful. it is available here: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=19473

I wish I could get my seats to look like his. Also, have a look at Steve Mason's websites - His saddles look to me like ones I could spend all day in...http://www.stevemasonsaddles.com/saddles.htm

Also, I know the all leather vs tin ground seat is a huge debate - However, I believe that for a start-up maker the all leather option gives more flexibility as you can skive and skive and skive and, leather is in my opinion, is easier to shape then tin.

Anyhow, happy building and I am looking forward to seeing the Will James rig!

Ron.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Randy--staying warm in SD right now is something we can only dream about. Seven below this morning, which if it's calm out, isn't all that bad. But there's a northeast breeze that makes it feel damn cold. Forgot to plug the diesel pickup in overnight, so it balked at starting. Chores took longer than normal due to having to come in and restore circulation and feeling to my hands--twice. When it's -7 outside, the pitchfork handle is -7 also! I have friends in Canada where it gets -40 for 2 weeks at a time. I don't know how they do it. And their chores take all day. Have a good one!

[Billy H]

Hi Randy,

It has been fun to see another fellow saddle maker go through trials and tribulations in the progression of making a better saddle.

I think you're doing a great job considering that it is #2.

Ground Seat---- is a real challenge for me, it seems that with every saddle I do without fail I question wether or not I have achieved my goal of the perfect seat. The last saddle I did felt just right, but when riding different horses I feel my center changing a little bit. Meaning each horse has a slightly different shape (hope that makes sense). I have built both Tin and all Leather seats and I find that I can get a better shape especially for us short legged fellows.

Big Souix----- I feel your pain buddy, couple of days ago it was -19. Once I got cold I couldn't warm up. Best Regards Billy

[Billy H]

Left out the part that the all leather seat works better for me in getting a better ground seat. Need to do a better job of checking what I wrote. Billy

[rktaylor]

Thanks Billy. I am locked on the metal strainer for now. If I ever get to a 4th saddle, I am leaning toward all leather.

Randy

[Tosch]

From a saddle buyer (and user) perspective (for what it is worth):

Over the years I have ended up with 3 different saddles on different tree configurations from 2 different makers.

All saddles needed the ground seat modified for me to be comfortable A different saddle maker than the one building the saddle had to put in another layer of leather up into the cantle and forward up to the points of cantle or to the stirrup grove and crown the seat more. Things I could not have done. But with all three saddles I then had to modify the sweet spot in the ground seat (multiple times) by removing some leather here and adding some material there . Now my sweet spot on all saddles is more or less in the middle of the seat (front to back) something the late Verlane Desgrange advised me on some years before she past away. And I modified the seats that they all now have a nice leg channel. And for once I do not feel of being behind my horse's movements.

One of the saddles came with an all leather ground seat, the two others with a metall strainer. When I watched the saddle makers modify the seat and when I did it myself, I could not see any difference in modifying a leather or metall strainer ground seat.

I do like to look at nicely stamped and carved saddles like everyone else does....but the for me seat design is of outmost importance !!!

OH sorry! I forgot to compliment you on your nice saddle (!) , was so concentrating on the seat discussion.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Tosch

[Billy H]

Hey Randy,

I'm sorry that my posts probably didn't make much sense to you. Sometimes I get into a hurry writing.

I must confess that I am a saddleaholic:) . Seems like I'm always thinking about them and how to make the next one better.

A few years ago Western Horseman interviewed some of the Saddle Makers from the TCAA . The article was on what they felt was a good saddle fit ( ground seat ). WOW what a great article in that each maker had a different take on fit. Some of the most respected makers in the business each with a little different idea of what they liked. I find myself thinking of that often. So far I have built ( to the best of my ability) Tin Ground seat saddle like Jeremiah Watt in his DVD, Tin Ground seat like Dale Harwood in his DVD series, Steve Brewers All Leather Ground Seat tutorial, Dusty Johnsons 2 piece Tin Seat and sat through Al Gould two day class at Prescott. Would love to watch Keith Seidel put his Ground Seat in. All are different but the same in that their goal is to be balanced and comfortable.

I guess that's why I was bringing up how a saddle feels really good on the Draw Down Stand but when I put the saddle on different horses my center of balance felt different, some horses really good and some other horses good but not what I think as perfect.

Not really any help for you, just observation. Cary Schwarz saddles look like they have a good Ground seat also, I have his Buck Rolls on my last saddle; they are really well done. Super nice guy to talk too. I think I may get his Ground Seat DVD.

Long winded thoughts from a fellow novice saddle maker. Billy

[rktaylor]

Billy,

This thread kind of took on it's own life, but the discussion has been great for me. Thanks for all the thoughts.

Randy

[rktaylor]

My wife got a pretty good ride in last weekend (4-5 miles). No complaints on the seat, so I did something right. I get less impressed with my finish everyday, but that's another story. Thanks for all the tips and discussion. I'll never look at a saddle seat the same again.

#3 should be done soon. I'll post pics then.

Randy