Original Singer 45K Users Manual

[Trox]

"Copy and clone all apart from the noodle system", Its an old Singer slogan

[jimi]

Thanks Tor, very kind of you, we are one step ahead of the normal human beings as we already have this one on the first page always good to have another one just in case someone missed the first one , regards jimi.

[Trox]

Jimi, I did not see that one, only the old one.

[jimi]

Have you or do You also use a 45k tor?

[Trox]

Hi Jimi, I am more of a Adler type of person. I do have an old Adler class 5-27 who is the same machine as a 45K (cylinder bed, bottom feed with jump foot). I have used that for many years, but now I use a 441 clone. In fact I have own several old Adler`s class 5 and 105 (I am selling one 105 now)

[jimi]

Hi Tor, so does the feed dog under the jump foot mark vegi tan also?? and do you used any type of attachments like binding,welting with the adler. regards jimi.

[Trox]

Hi Jimi, yes it does, the jump foot goes up and follows the material back-wards; before it jumps back to its starting position (like the movement of a upper feeding foot). Its not driven as the upper feeding foot, but spring loaded. The advantage is that you can sew with less foot pressure, then again less marks. The class 5-5 (who is an other subclass) has bottom and upper (such upper feeding foot). Same as the newer Adler 105-25 (as I`m selling one of now).

Thats again an improvement over the jump-foot system, you are able to feed better. To address the problem with leather and bottom feed, Adler then made a needle feed subclass; 105-64 (and 104-64 flatbed version). It had bottom and needle feed, it preformed best on leather with a roller foot. The needle does most of the feeding job in a modern triple feed leather machine anyway (set up with smooth feed dog and feeding foot). So the -64 subclass performed well on flat leather, but was a poor climber. The later Adler 205 came also first in this subclass (-64), before they built on a triple feed system on it: "205-74". Who later became the DA 205-370 we know today. So the class 5 is its grand father. The Singer 45 K was also available with these same types of feed and uses the same shuttle as the class 5.

Tor

[jimi]

That is what i imagined Tor, that it would also leave marks. i suppose the only way is to pay big money for a triple feed or use more chrome tanned leather or on some applications cut off the excess. the best combination i have found until know is the right foot toe for this:

this way i only loose 5mm of material which is not a big waste considering the results. and looking at how the binder attachment works on these machines i think maybe a single row of teeth down the left side with the binder foot would maybe evade the teeth marks? (only with good side up and bad side under) i cant think of any other option for the 45?? maybe we could convince people that teeth marks on leather are cool and vintage hahaha. regards jimi

Edited March 7, 2015 by jimi

[jimi]

[Pip]

Thanks guys I use a 45k a bit got a good deal on one so snapped it up, struggling with a few bits so as its my first machine, these should come in handy.

Pip

[Trox]

Hi Jimi, thats a very nice needle plate, all those teeth marks are on the other side of the stitches. Saddler's used these bottom feeds for more than half a century. You could try a roulette roller-foot (from Cowboy Bob http://www.tolindsewmach.com/ or http://www.kwokhing.com/ ). Some of these roller foot`s comes with Teflon /rubber rings that does not leave mark on the top. A roller foot will ease up on the foot pressure.

The technique minimize marks on wegtan is to let off most of most of the foot pressure (and perhaps rounding of those feed dog teeth a bit with a ceramic stone, or use a thin Teflon tape on top of them) and helping the feed by hand.

You got to press the material down when the needle is down making the thread loop, and help the feed; when the feed-dog comes up (from the needle plate) to feed. You got to very slow in the beginning before you master this technique.

Then as soon as your finished stitching, you must wet the teeth marks with sponge (with water of course) and hammer out the mark with a smooth faced (polished head) leather hammer. You got to be quick before the teeth marks fixate. You have to hammer the seam anyway to close the stitches, now you doing both in one process. You can use some force, but not as much as you widen out/crushes the leather.

Very important:

Remember the material must lay still (not move) when the needle is forming the loop; or else it will skip stitches and perhaps brake the needle too. Be very careful and go slow.

You can remove some of the edge of the feed-dog teeth, but removing to much and it will not feed good. Perhaps you using in on fabrics too, then they has to be sharp. There was somebody in the forum that melted a layer of some protecting film over his feed dog, but I cannot remember what kind of material it was. Perhaps Wiz knows something about this, it does not hurt to ask him.

Tor

[jimi]

Thanks tor, thanks for sharing your information. and yes the roller foot is on the list as of a long time ago, i might even try to make one up?. yes, wetting out the marks works well with a non aggressive foot, the only problem i found is that sometimes it did not pull on the material enough? that is where i should have been pulling!. this is another option i am going to try out at some time, it was used on the 45k 69 i think it was?? which was used for stitching soles on boots or shoes, and consists off two teeth which follow the thread path, and the only problem is when you get to the corners the teeth walk out of the path and leave their mark. but on the straight or light curves it is quite acceptable underneath. "feel free to criticize, as this is the only way to get better at something"

So Tor, i take it that you do not use any kind of binder attachment on your adler machine?? if anyone reading uses a binder attachment or any other kind of attachment for this type of machine, Feel Free, could you explain your set up or upload pictures? thanks in advance.

Edited March 8, 2015 by jimi

[jimi]

Hey Pip, what class 45k do you use? and what bits do you need? jimi.

[Trox]

Thanks tor, thanks for sharing your information. and yes the roller foot is on the list as of a long time ago, i might even try to make one up?. yes, wetting out the marks works well with a non aggressive foot, the only problem i found is that sometimes it did not pull on the material enough? that is where i should have been pulling!. this is another option i am going to try out at some time, it was used on the 45k 69 i think it was?? which was used for stitching soles on boots or shoes, and consists off two teeth which follow the thread path, and the only problem is when you get to the corners the teeth walk out of the path and leave their mark. but on the straight or light curves it is quite acceptable underneath. "feel free to criticize, as this is the only way to get better at something"

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So Tor, i take it that you do not use any kind of binder attachment on your adler machine?? if anyone reading uses a binder attachment or any other kind of attachment for this type of machine, Feel Free, could you explain your set up or upload pictures? thanks in advance.

Hi Jimi, that plate and dog worked out very well, you only see the push out from the needle there. No, I do not have any binder set up for my 441 machine. But I do have a Pfaff 345 H3 with a synchronized binder set up if I need to do that kids of jobs. It will handle up to TKT 15 threads, but I normally uses tkt 40 to 20 for those jobs. My old class 5 has both a binder and binding feet`s in its saddler's attachment pack, but I never tried it on a bottom feed machine. Its not the best machine for those jobs.

Tor

[Trox]

Hi Jimi, here you see the original class 4 and 5 binder attachment (pic abb 19). Singer used the same type, of course. Its in the German Adler 4/5 manual.

I hope this helps.

Tor

A18.pdf

Edited March 11, 2015 by Trox

[jimi]

Thanks Tor, very interesting that Adler manual page, were all the adler manuals like this? and did they copy all the singer attachments for this jump foot machine?? that is what you do not find these days, manuals where they explain and show the accessories working. especially the old machines. i also have that binder attachment from an adler and was thinking maybe the single row of teeth down the left side of the needle could possibly work?? it might not leave teeth marks on the binder strip?? in the picture it is binding one piece of leather, so marks underneath wont matter much. does it say anything about the needle plate and feed dog used with the binder attachment?? regards jimi.

[Trox]

Hi, like I said before Singer was the one doing the copying, not Adler.

Tor

[jimi]

Aha! so i see you are an adler man! then i should have said " and did singer copy all the adler attachments for this jump foot machine??"

[Trox]

Every one copied each other when possible. Its like today, when a popular product is out of patent protection, then its soon forgotten who made it in the first place. Anyway, Kochs Adler constructed many popular machines and Singer copied a lot of them. Here they copied the Adler class 204-64 and 205-64, then called it 45A-92 and 45A-93. They did not even bother to make their own part list for, so they copied those too http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/45A92.pdf http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/45A93.pdf its the original German Adler part lists. The 204/205 are successors of the class 4 and 5, who later became 104 and 105. Class 4 and 5 are the same machines as the 45K. The number "45" contains 4 and 5 together, and is not the machine model number 45 Singer made.(Its not a logical class number for Singer) And the class 45K are both cylinder bed and flatbed machines together. Where came this class number from? Its only one logical explanation, they stole it from Adler. This is my (conspiracy) theory anyway

You cannot find such behavior in the history of the DA company. Of course everybody starts with copying others, but when Adler became better they made their own design. Singer bought up allot of small good companies and carried on copying when they needed too. Business is business and when its legal it alright.

There are many who will not agree with me in this theory. They both made/make good sewing machines who are copied by others today.

[Constabulary]

I don't agree with this theory (Class 4 + 5 >> 45K).

As far as I know Singer already produced 45K´s when Adler was still producing the Class 3 which is the predecessor of the Class 4.

45K flat bed and Adler Class4 are a bit different - the 45K´s are shorter than the Adler Class 4. Therefore I´d say the Class 4 is rather an improvement of the 45K. I don't think Singer would produce shorter machines when they copy something.

But thats just my theory w/o proof.

[shoepatcher]

Trox,

Just so you know, Adler copied Singer in the patch machine department. As far as I can tell, the first IFA or patch machine was made by Claes in 1869. Singer made their first patch machine in the late 1870's. Koch Adler made theirs after that. Both the early Singer and Adler patch machine were good but the later ones as we well know were better.

glenn

[jimi]

Thanks for all of the information and opinions guys, this is interesting to hear? what about Elias Howe? i saw a saddlers machine a month ago on ebay france with his badge and serial nº which was very cool. it was a cylinder arm with a brass arm cover and it had a continuous feed dog ring like the one found on the singer class 18 ?? i wish i had kept a picture or two to show you all.

[Trox]

I don't agree with this theory (Class 4 + 5 >> 45K).

As far as I know Singer already produced 45K´s when Adler was still producing the Class 3 which is the predecessor of the Class 4.

45K flat bed and Adler Class4 are a bit different - the 45K´s are shorter than the Adler Class 4. Therefore I´d say the Class 4 is rather an improvement of the 45K. I don't think Singer would produce shorter machines when they copy something.

But thats just my theory w/o proof.

A German "Singer" man I knew this with would stir up some feelings. Perhaps, they had to use some parts they already had from another class, I do not know. There are many factors in play here, Singer did not have to clone it; just copy what they needed. There are lot of circumstantial evidence here, and when I always find such cases like the 45A, it makes you start thinking:)

Thats right Shoe patcher, they both copied others in the beginning. However, in the modern sewing machine history DA is the company everybody else trying to copy. You have to invent your own stuff to be marked leading, thats what DA did.

And again this are just my theories too

Tor

[Constabulary]

ha ha ha - yes, Indeed a German Singer man but that just happened - I never really had the intension of only owning / buying Singers. I have tried many machines (lots of trial and error). I just kept what suited best for my needs and one reason for keeping a machine always was (and still is) the availability of spare parts w/o calling dealer all over the the world. And thats a big advantage for the Singers or their clones. For all machines I own a good number of spare parts are available for reasonable prices. And so far all after market parts I have bought are of good quality (with two exceptions - a 133K tension release disc and a 29K shuttle carrier spring). The only exception is the 307G2 but I figured a lot of parts from other Singer machines fit. (hook, feed dog, throat plate....) But everybody has his preferences and meanwhile I really like the the "idea" of old Singers.

But I honestly don`t care of who copied from who. I just don´t think the 45K is an Adler 4 / 5 clone. I`m also convinced that the Adler 4 is the better built machine. Some of the last Singer industrial machines are indeed made by Adler or copied from their machines like 45A, 169, 220 and I think some other Adler machines with Singer labels. Belief it or not - a couple of weeks ago I have seen a Claes / Textima patcher (one of the latest models) and it had a Singer decal on the upper arm.

Nothing is impossible in this business....

[Trox]

Hi, thats right, its easier to find vintage Singer Spare part than Adler.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/1415C%3d97800-TENSION-UNIT-COMPLETE-SEIKO-132K

Is this what you are looking for? just parts of these unit are more difficult to find I think. (its Seiko, but thats good too)

The Singer 29 K shuttle carrier spring # 8610 https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/8610-SHUTTLE-CARRIER-SPRING-SINGER-29K

Took me 4 min. to find these parts in UK (Singer country)

College Sewing has allot of stuff for industrial sewing machine, it does not matter what brand it is. But known classes like 29k and 133K, you came to right place. But next time I need something to for one of my Adler's, I will ask you to do a German search in for me; deal?

It like you say its is, nothing is impossible in the world of industrial sewing machine. Strange unknown machine suddenly appears, made exclusively for one large customer. They take a suitable head from another brand and fill it with their own shafts and gears. Its like with the Adler 221 sail maker machine, DA buys clone machines and trow away their part, using their own spare part to be able fulfill a order for such a machine.

So nothing surprises me any more.

Tor