Round knife/head knife questions

[8thsinner]

I have several questions on round knives.

I have not really used the old fashioned type before, I was using rota knives.

Anyway

How thick should the blade steel be for optimum performance?

Does any one have an old one they are wanting rid of that I can modify?

Where do you guys go to get yours made custom, Preferably in D2 or similar?

Assuming you look at a round knife as a half circle, Will a quarter circle version have any downfalls?

Slightly over a quarter really but you know what I mean

[barra]

I tend to use my round knives like they were a head knife.

Well that didn't work.

http://www.leffler.com.au/

Click online saddlery catalogue/tools Dixon

3rd pic from the bottom.

Barra

dixsinheakni.htm

dixsinheakni.htm

Edited November 17, 2008 by barra

[bruce johnson]

Not sure about blade thickness. My favorites are two. The old ones are made by Clyde Cutlery. They made a lot of kitchen and butcher knives. I think that the round knives are the only leather knives they made. I have heard they also made the Diamond Edge knives for Shapleigh. The knives sure look to be clones. I took the shoulders down some and like these Clydes a lot. A good balance of edge holding and ease of sharpening. Not sure when they stopped making them. I run onto them now and again. Quarter circle knives are nice for low angle skiving. The half knives give you two edges to use before stropping.

That said, I got a new one from Bob Dozier last spring. Made from D2, the sharpest knife I have ever laid a hand on off the bat. I haven't done anything but strop it yet. He is in Arkansas. Nice guy to deal with. Be prepared for some sticker shock, and a wait if he doesn't have one made up.

[8thsinner]

Yeah D2 is great, I especially want it because it's the steel used on one of my camp knives, it's a convex blade and I can still shave with it.

And yes I know Bob Dozier, His books are good too. But yeah he would be very expensive and his waiting list is probably about a year long.

I am a little more confused now though, it seems that a head knife is sometimes a half circle knife and sometimes a quarter circle, I guess it's just one of those terms.

So in really practical terms the quarter knife is actually more useful but the edge doesn't stay as sharp for as long, a problem which is resolved somewhat by using a harder high quality blade. Is that right?

Bruce, the edge of your blade is it flat ground or convex, I can't believe that it would be concave?

Does the taper in the stock of the blade start right from the spine and go fine or is the stock thicker until the last 1/2" or so, then go finer into the grind?

[bruce johnson]

Confusin' ain't it? I was taught that look at the knife. If you continue the contour of the blade around with imagination. If it makes a circle, it is a round knife. If it makes an oval, it is a head knife.

As far as a quarter being more/less useful than a full half circle. If you are using it to cut, you have two edges to use before stropping. If you are using to skive a low angle, you can get lower with the quarter blade without skiving your knuckles on the leather holding hand. For the knife safety experts, admit it, you all do this. You know you do. LOL.

Now as far as blade geometry. I guess mine are mostly flat, but a tad bit convex at 1 to 1-1/2" or so back from the edge, then flat to the edge. I put a fine secondary bevel on the edge to keep it from rolling. I got really precise about thin edges one day. I sharpened all my round knives to skin gnats. First time I ran them through some skirting they went great for about a foot and hit the wall. The edges were so thin they were rolling or chipping. I called Herb French. That was the day I learned about backing up a thin blade with a slightly steeper secondary bevel. As far as where the blade goes from thick to thin, looks like they kind of slope off from the spine pretty much flattish. That seems to have worked the best on the Clydes and Osbornes I have had.

[hidepounder]

I'm not familiar with the Clyde knives that Bruce likes, but I'll tell you my opinion, first however, here's an expert! His name is Bob Douglas. I don't know if you know him or not, but he is making his living refurbishing old leather tools and reproducing high quality tools that are no longer available. He is a Don King trained saddlemaker....so he knows what the tools are and how to use them....and make them! He is in Sheridan WY, his number is 307/737-2222.

After getting to know Bob, I have sold all my head knives and purchased old Gomph and W. Rose knives. I did keep a Bill Buchman knife I bought years ago and still like a lot even though it's stainless. Anyway I made this switch at considrable expense because the steel in these 100 year old knives is so superior to todays knives and is not available to makers today. (or maybe it's just not affordable?)

I could never seem to get along with a head knive until I met Bob, learned what to buy and how to sharpen them. Now I use 2 Gomphs, 1 W. Rose and the BB regularly. I love using head knives now....I feel I can do anything with them. I keep one for cutting out on the table, one for skiving, one for general cutting & trimming on my bench and one that I will only use on wet leather and it never touches the the bench. They are all small...from 2-1/2" to 3-1/2" except for the skiving knife which is 5 ". I don't have any use for a large head knife except for skiving large areas. Then I like the extra reach.

I used to sharpen mechanically...now I sharpen by hand. I have removed about 3/4" of shoulder on all of them, thinner is better, and I use a 1200 grit diamond stone to sharpen with(because there so damn hard)...which is not very often....I mostly just strop. Once my knife is sharp I begin polishing, mechanically, and I take the knives through 2 or 3 different rouges until I get a mirror finish. (very dangerous!) I even have a diamond dust embedded strop that I use when I have to.

Since I aquired these good knives...all the mystery and frustration using a head knife is gone! I would like to own a Dozier also...just because it's a Dozier! However you can buy knives on ebay for a lot less money! Especially now, prices are way down. You'll see a lot of old CS Osborns, HF Osborns (I like them too), and a few Gomphs and W.Roses. (never a Dozier!). The sure bet is to call Bob. He won't sell any that aren't in excellent condition and he removes the shoulder on them...they're ready to go.

I think a head knife is closer to 180 degress and is fairly shallow at the "nose"(my term for the center). I think of a round knife as one that sweeps considerably past 180 degrees and is deep at the "nose" and is usually a large knife. No one has ever been able to explain the difference to me...so I have come up with that distinction myself.

I hope this is helpful....one of the good things about this forum, is that advice doesn't cost much here! Good luck!

[MatthewD]

How much is considered to be a good price for a good knife, say if I found one on Ebay?

[Randy Cornelius]

When looking for a good round knife on ebay I would suggest looking at the older CS Osborne knives. I have several of the older ones that work well for me. I have paid as high as 300.00 for a custom made round knife made out of colbolt steel but it just did not work for me. And I was glad when I sold it and got my money out of it. Look for a CSO with a star on one side. I have a couple of these and they seem to have the best steel in them. But I have a couple other without the star that are good also. I have never paid over 40.00 or so for one of the older CSO knives. Don't be afraid if the blade looks tarnished or slightly rusty. It will not hurt the preformance I have one that is pitted and looks bad but is still a good cutter. As far as sharpening one, there are as many ways to sharpen a knife as there are those that use one. I strop my knifes to keep them sharp. I have made a leather belt for my 4 X 36 belt sander that I have rouse on that works great to polish and edge fast. If you get one bought and need help with getting an edge put on it. I would be glad to help you out. I have done so for a couple others. Just PM me.

Randy

[MatthewD]

Thanks Randy, I will more than likely have to have some help with it...

[hidepounder]

When looking for a good round knife on ebay I would suggest looking at the older CS Osborne knives. I have several of the older ones that work well for me. I have paid as high as 300.00 for a custom made round knife made out of colbolt steel but it just did not work for me. And I was glad when I sold it and got my money out of it. Look for a CSO with a star on one side. I have a couple of these and they seem to have the best steel in them. But I have a couple other without the star that are good also. I have never paid over 40.00 or so for one of the older CSO knives. Don't be afraid if the blade looks tarnished or slightly rusty. It will not hurt the preformance I have one that is pitted and looks bad but is still a good cutter. As far as sharpening one, there are as many ways to sharpen a knife as there are those that use one. I strop my knifes to keep them sharp. I have made a leather belt for my 4 X 36 belt sander that I have rouse on that works great to polish and edge fast. If you get one bought and need help with getting an edge put on it. I would be glad to help you out. I have done so for a couple others. Just PM me.

Randy

What a geat idea, Randy! Tell me about the leather strop for your sander!

[Sharpshooter]

D2 is NOT a good choice for a head knife unless you want to spend a lot of time refining the edge. If you want to discuss this in depth, I'll be happy to debate the metalurgy in depth.

The simple reason is that the carbides of D2 are HUGE compared to those of many other steels. Because the carbides are so large, they tend to chip out unless the edge is very highly polished or left in a very thick cross section that wouldn't work well in precisely cutting leather.

D2 is hard to sharpen, especially when the RC is brought up as high as most knifemakers bring it. For me, I prefer to spend time in the leather shop working on leather, not sharpening tools.

Save the money you're spending on "designer steel" and have the knife made of 1095 like they did in the old days. Before the 1970s just about all knives were made of 1095 or some mills derivation of it.

I use a leather knife made by Herter in the 90s, the EIGHTEEN 90s. It's absolutely 1095; .076 thick convexed and a hellacious cutter. The crew calls it the "Devil Knife" as it's bitten everyone in the shop at least once.

It's not the steel in this knife that makes it cut so well, it's the geometry of the edge. Maintaining it is dirt simple, a few swipes across the flesh side of whatever leather I'm working on brings the edge alive when it starts to not slice through. A bit of time on a stropping compound loaded hone every week or two and it's good to go. Remember, this is a production shop so we go through a couple of SIDES a day, that's a lot of cutting.

[hidepounder]

D2 is NOT a good choice for a head knife unless you want to spend a lot of time refining the edge. If you want to discuss this in depth, I'll be happy to debate the metalurgy in depth.

The simple reason is that the carbides of D2 are HUGE compared to those of many other steels. Because the carbides are so large, they tend to chip out unless the edge is very highly polished or left in a very thick cross section that wouldn't work well in precisely cutting leather.

D2 is hard to sharpen, especially when the RC is brought up as high as most knifemakers bring it. For me, I prefer to spend time in the leather shop working on leather, not sharpening tools.

Save the money you're spending on "designer steel" and have the knife made of 1095 like they did in the old days. Before the 1970s just about all knives were made of 1095 or some mills derivation of it.

I use a leather knife made by Herter in the 90s, the EIGHTEEN 90s. It's absolutely 1095; .076 thick convexed and a hellacious cutter. The crew calls it the "Devil Knife" as it's bitten everyone in the shop at least once.

It's not the steel in this knife that makes it cut so well, it's the geometry of the edge. Maintaining it is dirt simple, a few swipes across the flesh side of whatever leather I'm working on brings the edge alive when it starts to not slice through. A bit of time on a stropping compound loaded hone every week or two and it's good to go. Remember, this is a production shop so we go through a couple of SIDES a day, that's a lot of cutting.

Is 1095 the steel that's in my old Gomph knives? They cut soooooooo well!

[hidepounder]

When looking for a good round knife on ebay I would suggest looking at the older CS Osborne knives. I have several of the older ones that work well for me. I have paid as high as 300.00 for a custom made round knife made out of colbolt steel but it just did not work for me. And I was glad when I sold it and got my money out of it. Look for a CSO with a star on one side. I have a couple of these and they seem to have the best steel in them. But I have a couple other without the star that are good also. I have never paid over 40.00 or so for one of the older CSO knives. Don't be afraid if the blade looks tarnished or slightly rusty. It will not hurt the preformance I have one that is pitted and looks bad but is still a good cutter. As far as sharpening one, there are as many ways to sharpen a knife as there are those that use one. I strop my knifes to keep them sharp. I have made a leather belt for my 4 X 36 belt sander that I have rouse on that works great to polish and edge fast. If you get one bought and need help with getting an edge put on it. I would be glad to help you out. I have done so for a couple others. Just PM me.

Randy

Randy,

Your idea of building a strop for your belt sander is great! I would like to know what weight leather you used and how did you connect the ends together....glue?

Bob

[superchute]

well if you look here in LW there has been lost of chat on head knives and here is one Art said makes a good head knife in SD and there about 50 bucks. Duwayne peters in Blunt SD 605-962-6227

Russ

[Timbo]

Can somebody post of pic of the blade that is being refered to as convex and removing 3/4'' off the shoulder. I have a head knife and have yet to use it to cut anything other than straight lines. But I do need to learn how to sharpen it or shape the edge to hold an edge.

Please post some pics if you got 'em.

Tim

[8thsinner]

Thanks for all the great information, thats enough to sort out things in my head.

And the reason I want D2 is because to date it has the best edge holding and sharpness qualities that I have used to date, Not because it's a designer steel, If I wanted to use a designer steel I would probably opt for S30v cryo tempered.

But when it comes to a new tool type I prefer to stick with what I know and I know D2 is good enough for my needs.

I do not mind that it will take a while to sharpen it initially to the way it seems to need to be, I love sharpening and polishing blades, to me it's just another hobby.

And it seems like the thinner the blade the better, convexed from a fair way back really, and highly polished. I think I will opt for a quarter blade (well just over) with two different shapes of curves for each side of it. Even though I do not do a lot of skiving, being able to do so more safely is a high concern, Practicality and versatility is what I go for.

Thanks again

[Randy Cornelius]

Randy,

Your idea of building a strop for your belt sander is great! I would like to know what weight leather you used and how did you connect the ends together....glue?

Bob

I made the belt out of some scrap split leather. I ordered some leather from W&C and had it split down to 5 oz and had them send me the piece they split off. I cut this 4" wide and over lap the ends 2" each way and skive the ends out to a feather edge. Then glue them down with dual 88. It makes a difference which way the belt goes on as the place where the flap comes around needs to be so the blade does not catch the end which is not healthy. I rub in the rouge and I now have a power strop for all my cutting knifes. I even sharpen the wifes kitchen knives on this. I am out of town right now but will try to post a picture if anyone wants.

Randy

[TwinOaks]

The simple reason is that the carbides of D2 are HUGE compared to those of many other steels. Because the carbides are so large, they tend to chip out unless the edge is very highly polished or left in a very thick cross section that wouldn't work well in precisely cutting leather....It's not the steel in this knife that makes it cut so well, it's the geometry of the edge.

Ahhhhhh someone else who speaks "technical details"

I spent a fair amount of time researching steel to work at forging a field knife. I settled on 5160 because it's most readily available and pretty forgiving for the backyard smith. I absolutely agree with you on D2, it's great for a big-ish blade that will see lots of abuse between sharpenings. For fine work, you're more likely to end up with a dendritic edge after just a few curves. I'm thinking of trying a round knife now . For reference, don't bother with cross cut saw blades (circle saw) as they're commonly made from L6 steel, which hardens and tempers well, but will rust while you watch it.

[tonyc1]

These knives of mine I've had and used for 40 years except for the light coloured handled knife which I've only had for 30 years. There is 1 x Barnsley, 1 x T Dixon& Sons, 1 x J. Dixon, 1 x J. Dixon & Sons and 4 Osborne knives with different stamps. These all hold razor edges, especially 1 of the Dixon and the Barnsley, and are easy to sharpen. These knives are basically the same shape as when I first got them and are used practically every day and hold there edge. I'm sure these aren't any modern space age steel with fancy names and numbers and a couple of them probably go back to the beginning of the 20th. century but they are a pleasure to use.

Tony.