Gluing Rawhide To Leather For Cowboy Holster

[bushpilotmexico]

I have searched all over including this forum for hints on how to fasten rawhide between two pieces of leather when forming a fast draw cowboy holster.

I Googled one gentleman who makes them and when it came to his process he politely said it's a trade secret.

I'm a custom knife maker and in all my years never met a knifemaker who wouldn't share any or all the information he possessed. Nothing was a trade secret. The thing that separated the master knife makers from the amateur was the quality of the finished product. I make all the sheaths for my knives as well as archery quivers.

Rawhide has to be wet to be formed, seems like glue won't adhere to a wet surface, the rawhide shrinks when it dries, if you sandwich it between two layers it will shrink and possibly bubble up the liner and on and on, lots of horror stories.

It would be much appreciated if anyone be able to tell me how to proceed or maybe give me some helpful tips?

I use 8-9 oz leather for my sheaths and for holster making was thinking of using 8-9 oz and then 3-4 oz for the liner and sandwiching rawhide in between.

Some photos:

[Dwight]

My one and only rawhide project was a knife sheath, . . . for a special, . . . home made knife for a young man who wanted a Native American look.

The photo is that sheath, . . . I took a piece of rawhide, . . . wet it, . . . formed the "general" shape of what i was wanting by wetting and bending it.

A few days later when I was certain it had dried, . . . I contact cemented it to the suede that makes the sheath. Haven't heard any complaints, . . . and that was several years ago.

May God bless,

Dwight

[bushpilotmexico]

My one and only rawhide project was a knife sheath, . . . for a special, . . . home made knife for a young man who wanted a Native American look.

The photo is that sheath, . . . I took a piece of rawhide, . . . wet it, . . . formed the "general" shape of what i was wanting by wetting and bending it.

A few days later when I was certain it had dried, . . . I contact cemented it to the suede that makes the sheath. Haven't heard any complaints, . . . and that was several years ago.

May God bless,

Dwight

Thanks Dwight,

What I don't understand is why is it such a big secret, Obviously because the rawhide needs to be wet and supple to be able to sandwich it and then form the holster there is a certain technique that should be followed, type of adhesive, etc. if adhesive is in fact used (I doubt it).

This guy on Google who says it's his trade secret shouldn't be afraid to pass it on. The proof of the pudding is the end result if he is, in fact, a master leather smith then his final product should speak for itself and blow away any competition if they use his technique.

I see some individuals use metal between layers rather than rawhide. In a lot of my knife sheaths I use the old boiled leather process and after I wet form the knife the sheath dries as hard as nails. I'm kind of thinking that if you sandwich the rawhide (wet) between the outer and inner lining leather but don't have the rawhide extend into the area to be stitched. Then sew the holster, use the boiled leather technique and form it to the firearm which has been wrapped sufficiently ( remember in fast draw we don't want a friction fit it has to fit loose) with layers of saran wrap or what ever to get the loose fit and then let the holster dry.

If and when the rawhide decides to shrink it will do so trapped between the boiled leather outer and inner layers. Not being held by the stitches it shouldn't cause the liner to bubble up as it shrinks. It should follow the predetermined shape of the holster.

I think this has to be the way it's done as I can't think of any glue that will bond to wet leather and you really don't want it bonded if it's going to shrink.

[TwinOaks]

tip:

If you don't know of an adhesive that will work with damp things, you haven't researched enough adhesives.

[bushpilotmexico]

tip:

If you don't know of an adhesive that will work with damp things, you haven't researched enough adhesives.

Let's put it this way whether there is a glue or not (Gorilla glue will work but foams) I think the rawhide has to be free floating and let it shrink if it wants between layers and form to the predetermined shape. Trapped between leather that has been subjected to the cuirboulli process I think you would be able to jump up and down on the holster without affecting the shape when it dries.

Just looking for comments from leather artisans who have worked with rawhide.

[Dwight]

Let me go back to my original post, . . . I contact cemented the rawhide to the suede, . . . it did not shrink, . . . the pieces are still together. And I might add that they are by this time as near as can become, . . . one piece. No floaters.

AND, . . . If the boiling process does such a wonderful job, . . . why bother with the rawhide????

May God bless,

Dwight

[bushpilotmexico]

Let me go back to my original post, . . . I contact cemented the rawhide to the suede, . . . it did not shrink, . . . the pieces are still together. And I might add that they are by this time as near as can become, . . . one piece. No floaters.

AND, . . . If the boiling process does such a wonderful job, . . . why bother with the rawhide????

May God bless,

Dwight

Good point Dwight,

Leather armor in the old days was made using the cuirboulli process. At the moment I'm just tossing ideas around looking for someone who might want to share their secret.

Sounds like some holster makers use thin metal between the two layers. Sounds like these competition fast draw competitors want and expect a zero retention holster with absolutely no friction to slow down their time.

With the amount of work making a rig because all stitching is by hand i kind of want it to work out the first time with no maybes or try this.

[Dwight]

OK, . . . if you are dyed in the wool destined to do this, . . . forget the rawhide.

Go get some 20 / 22 / 24 gauge sheet aluminum, with the brushed finish, . . . no shiny stuff, . . . get a good sharp set of left & right cutting metal shears, . . . and an old tee shirts you never want to see again.

If you have ever done a pattern on manila folders, . . . do one for this project, . . . if not, . . . youtube search, . . . there are a couple that will show you how to come up with a usable pattern. The metal should be the same shape in the back as you make for the front.

The metal, . . . after it is cut out, . . . needs to be formed to the weapon, . . . wrap the weapon in the tee shirt and hold in place with some masking tape, . . . put a dowel rod on top of the barrel to make a sight channel.

DO NOT TRY TO FORM THE METAL VERY CLOSELY TO THE WEAPON, . . . just follow general countours, . . .

Next, . . . cut out the "outside of the holster", . . . 5/6 or 6/7 veggie tan for this, . . . this is the piece that will show hair side against your leg, . . . and on the front / outside of the holster. Make it big enough so you have a good 3/8 to 1/2 inch of sewing room all around your aluminum piece, . . . plus the piece to loop over and make the belt loop out of.

Next, . . . cut out a 3/4 or 4/5 liner, . . . leaving enough on the edges to be able to sew it. The liner will be the exact same shape as the outside of the holster, . . . and cut it out using the other leather piece as the pattern. When done, . . . you can lay the two on top of each other, . . . and they will be an exact fit.

Make sure your metal is shaped as you want it for the holster, . . . apply contact cement to the outside of it, . . . and the inside of the outside piece of leather, . . . bond the two together. Let is set for about 12 to 18 hours.

Gently pry the metal/leather piece apart, . . . enough to coat the entire inside with contact cement, . . . coat the inside of the liner, . . . bond them together. Let is set for about 12 to 18 hours.

Sand the edges smooth all around the holster.

Sew the top and bottom of the holster together, . . . as well as the pieces making the belt loop. Bevel and burnish these edges as well.

Next make a filler piece, . . . a gusset that goes between the front and back of the holster, . . . at the seam edge. It should be about 1/2 inch wide, . . . and go from the top to the bottom of the holster, . . . it should be specifically cut to the exact shape of the holster, . . . not just a 1/2 inch wide strip you found laying around. It should be of good solid 8/9 oz leather, . . . Contact cement that all in place, . . . which will then close up the holster.

Sand the edge smooth, . . . bevel, . . . and burnish.

Punch and stitch the leather edge of the holster.

Once you have this all done, . . . the holster should be ready for final "forming". Wet the holster real good (don't soak it overnight, . . . just a good quick 10 second dunk will do), . . . and with the weapon in a plastic bag, . . . use your thumbs, knuckles, fingers, . . . to form the final shape you want. Just realize that you are not going to get a really tight fitting form, . . . just a general shape.

Hang it up to dry, . . . in a cabinet at 130 degrees or slightly under, if you have it available, . . . and leave it. Let it dry, . . . completely, . . . thoroughly, . . . fully.

Then stain and finish to your hearts content.

I'll caution you before you start, . . . the first one will not turn out right, . . . they never do. It will be a learning experience, . . . it will not be wasted leather and effort, . . . but rather a "hands on" schooling expedition. You will do something wrong that will make the holster not be "what you wanted". It may be useful (mine almost always are), . . . but just not exactly how you originally wanted it to turn out.

Just remember it really is as the old saying goes "We make the first one for practice, all the rest are production."

Good luck, . . . may God bless,

Dwight

Edited April 11, 2015 by Dwight

[Red Cent]

BPM, if you are making holsters for a member of the Cowboy Fast Draw Association, we are not allowed to use metal for lining. I hate making metal liners and I don't like rawhide. So......I use an 8-9 for the outer and 6-7 for the liner. Make the holster as usual, adhering to the rules, wet form, and bake it in the oven. 170 is low as I can go for about 20 minutes. Then, I let it sunbathe if the sun is out. Then a heat lamp. As you know, rock hard.

Most CFDA members learn very quickly, do not cause outside pressure on the holster. Store it carefully and transport it carefully.

[Red Cent]

BTW, this guy is known for his rawhide uses. He built these. Those dark strips top and bottom are rawhide. However, they are on the outside of the holsters.

http://www.rodkiblersaddlery.com/

Edited April 11, 2015 by Red Cent

[bushpilotmexico]

Just an update on the holster, I have been using the Slickbald Custom Leather holster pack and Chris Andre doesn't use rawhide for a liner just two pieces of 7 oz leather glued together.

I'm at the wet forming stage and will do so once my pistol arrives. I didn't have any 7 oz so used the 8 oz that I use in my knife sheaths and archery quivers. Might be a challenge to wet form but we'll see. It was quite a learning experience making the holster and there will be room for improvement on the next one. No sewing machine so all hand stitched. I doubled stitched the holster because of the forces applied by the forming.

[bushpilotmexico]

Got the retaining strap stamped so now I'm waiting for the pistol I ordered so I can wet form and dye. I have Chris Andre's holster and belt patterns but I find the directions a little confusing at times.

Just started on the belt trying to figure out his sizing instructions and the shrinkage factor he talks about taking into account the belt wrapping around your waist.

Would anyone have some suggestions?

Thanks

[Dwight]

I don't know what you are referring to when you say "shrinkage", . . .

I've never had a belt shrink yet, . . . unless it is literally soaked like overnight and laid out in the noonday sun (or put in a microwave, . . . but that is another story), . . . leather won't shrink enough in a cowboy rig to cause you any grief.

The one thing you really need to do though, . . . take off the belt you are wearing right now, . . . measure from the hole it was latched in, . . . to the edge of the buckle.

Let's say you measured it and you got 42 inches. Make your cowboy rig 46 inches from the edge of the buckle to the center of 5 or 7 holes. Some guys use 5, I give my customers 7 holes. That added 4 inches seems like a lot, . . . but that is John Bianchi's formula, . . . I've used it for over 10 years, . . . it has never failed me, . . . works every time.

For your first belt, . . . let me suggest you do a simple one, . . . 2 1/2 or 3 inches from front pocket around to the other front pocket, . . . and taper the buckle end, and tongue end, just long enough to do the work for the 1 1/2 inch buckle. If you remember Clint Eastwood's rig in the spaghetti westerns, . . . it would be shaped like that.

May God bless,

Dwight

[bushpilotmexico]

I don't know what you are referring to when you say "shrinkage", . . .

I've never had a belt shrink yet, . . . unless it is literally soaked like overnight and laid out in the noonday sun (or put in a microwave, . . . but that is another story), . . . leather won't shrink enough in a cowboy rig to cause you any grief.

The one thing you really need to do though, . . . take off the belt you are wearing right now, . . . measure from the hole it was latched in, . . . to the edge of the buckle.

Let's say you measured it and you got 42 inches. Make your cowboy rig 46 inches from the edge of the buckle to the center of 5 or 7 holes. Some guys use 5, I give my customers 7 holes. That added 4 inches seems like a lot, . . . but that is John Bianchi's formula, . . . I've used it for over 10 years, . . . it has never failed me, . . . works every time.

For your first belt, . . . let me suggest you do a simple one, . . . 2 1/2 or 3 inches from front pocket around to the other front pocket, . . . and taper the buckle end, and tongue end, just long enough to do the work for the 1 1/2 inch buckle. If you remember Clint Eastwood's rig in the spaghetti westerns, . . . it would be shaped like that.

May God bless,

Dwight

Hi Dwight,

I appreciate your comments and support. This is what Chris Andre calls "shrinkage factor" (it's why his directions are confusing) and I quote him:

DETERMINE WAIST SIZE

C. SHRINKAGE FACTOR: Any material will shrink (proportional to it's thickness) as it bends; belts are no exception. I estimate 3/4" to an 1-1/2" up to a 58" waist, assuming a 12/14 oz (.20") total belt thickness. Remember to add it on!

1. You say I should measure from the hole it was latched in to the edge of the buckle. I assume you mean the front edge or is from where the buckle prong swivels on the buckle?

2. 2-1/2" or 3 inches from front pocket around to the other front pocket....what is the front pocket?

Do you line your cowboy belts? Chris Andre does and this may be why he adds the additional measurement for "shrinkage factor".

Thanks,

Cliff

[Dwight]

Bushpilotmexico wrote:

C. SHRINKAGE FACTOR: Any material will shrink (proportional to it's thickness) as it bends; belts are no exception. I estimate 3/4" to an 1-1/2" up to a 58" waist, assuming a 12/14 oz (.20") total belt thickness. Remember to add it on!

Quite honestly, I don't know of anyone else who does this, . . . my "training" came from John Bianchi's videos, . . . and it was never mentioned by THE pro, . . . so I don't really think it is important.

1. You say I should measure from the hole it was latched in to the edge of the buckle. I assume you mean the front edge or is from where the buckle prong swivels on the buckle?

It does not matter which way you measure it (I use the front edge myself) just so you always do it the same way.

2. 2-1/2" or 3 inches from front pocket around to the other front pocket....what is the front pocket?

What I meant is the wide part of the belt will go from the left front pocket to the right front pocket, around the backside. Only the tongue and buckle area will be smaller. I made you up a little diagram showing how I make the tapered belts, . . . it is really easy, . . . just remember to measure twice before you cut once, . . .

Do you line your cowboy belts? Chris Andre does and this may be why he adds the additional measurement for "shrinkage factor".

I line all my cowboy belts unless the buyer specifically says he does not want it lined. I contact cement two pieces of leather together looking for something in the .180 to .220 overall thickness, . . . thinner for the shorter ones, . . . thicker for the longer ones. After cementing them together, . . . I roll them with a rolling pin and leave them flat for about a day, . . . then I treat it as though it was just one piece of leather.

And again, . . . I don't know why, where, or how he came up with the shrinkage, . . . maybe email him and get an answer. It has NEVER been a problem for me.

May God bless,

Dwight

[billybopp]

I don't know about you guys, but my belts have all been shrinking steadily since I was in my mid 20's.

[Dwight]

I don't know about you guys, but my belts have all been shrinking steadily since I was in my mid 20's.

Now you know that wasn't fair,............... .............taking advantage of us just because we like steak, chocolate, spaghetti, chocolate, doughnuts, chocolate, and did I mention chocolate?

May God bless,

Dwight

[bushpilotmexico]

Hi Dwight,

Thanks for all your help you are a real gentleman. The belt that I have the pattern for from Slickbald (Chris Andre) is a ranger style belt with your help I think I have figured out the length.

The photo is one of Chris two gun rigs but it shows the ranger style. I apologize for the skull. As you said it's a learning experience and I'll plug away at it this weekend and keep you updated.

Chris doesn't use either rawhide or metal just relies on the veg tanned leather. I'm going to build myself a drying box. I saw one where the guy used a large plastic garbage pail with a heat bulb inside and kept the drying temperature around 130 degrees.

Thanks,

Cliff

[bushpilotmexico]

Got the belt finished, a learning experience and room for improvement on the next one. When I was hand sewing the liner to the belt I kind of wished I had a sewing machine with over 600 stitches, took about 4 hours by hand. Generally pleased with the way it has worked out. Once my pistol arrives and I wet form the holster I will gate everything dyed.

I appreciate all the help that members gave me.

[bushpilotmexico]

Thanks to all I dyed the belt today.

[camano ridge]

Looks pretty nice.

[bushpilotmexico]

Looks pretty nice.

Much appreciated. When I first started this thread I had figured I was going to use rawhide between the layers on the holster but Chris Andre ( Slickbald) from where I bought the pattern just relies on the two layers for rigidlity after wet forming and drying.

He uses 7 oz for both layers but all I had available was 8/9 oz that I use for my knife sheaths. It will be a little tougher to wet form but not impossible. My understanding for fast draw is that the holster has to be frictionless and the cylinder should be able to turn inside the holster. The trigger guard actually sits on the welt and is outside the actual holster. When you tip the holster upside down it should actually fall out.

I picked up a glass 6 oz Coke bottle that I'm going to use initially to begin the forming process then I'll refine it with the pistol. I've also got a friend who's making a drying box for me using two light bulbs, a dimmer switch and a thermometer. I read on Google that 130 degrees is the best temperature to dry leather to get maximum hardness.

Pistol should be here next week.

[Dwight]

Looks pretty nice.

And I agree, . . .

May God bless,

Dwight

[Mongo]

I do a lot of cowboy action gun belts and I have to agree with Dwight on this one; I've never had a problem with a belt shrinking.

My cowboy action holsters are 9 oz. with a 7 oz. lining. I pretty much follow the John Bianchi method for wet fitting these holsters (from his DVDs). After running the holster under running cool tap water, I open up the holster with a bee's waxed hammer handle. I pay special attention to making the bottom of the pouch close to a cylinder in shape. Then I use a small leather cement bottle to open up where the revolver cylinder fits (Bianchi used a round leather maul in the DVD). Next I flair out the top lip of the holster for easy re-holstering. My last step is to place the revolvers in the holsters and let them sit there for a few hours. Bianchi only put the revolver in for a few minutes in his DVD, but I've never had a problem leaving them in longer. Sometimes with blued revolvers, I wrap them in one layer of plastic wrap.

With revolvers in the holsters, I lay them flat on my tooling granite slab for a few hours. Most of the time I put a little support under the bottom of the revolver grips so when the holsters dry they will not be flat against the body (most of the cowboy shooters I make rigs for want their pistol butts to be away from their body a little so they are easier to grab when on the timer).

Once they have sat for a few hours, I take the revolvers out and wipe them off and hit them with a little gun oil. I leave the holsters on the granite slab to dry. They are almost dry after sitting overnight, but most of the time it takes at least a day. After they dry, I check the fit with the revolvers again before dyeing the holsters. Please note that after dyeing and applying a leather finish, the holster may fit a little differently. If they are too tight I can open them up a little by carefully using my rubber cement bottle. Some other holster makers wrap the guns in several layers of plastic wrap and let them sit in the holsters for a day or two. If the fit is a little to loose I carefully squeeze the pouch of the holster with two hands (squeeze just a little and check the fit) until it feels right.

Good luck with your project. From what I can see from the pictures, you have done a good job so far.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mongo

[bushpilotmexico]

I do a lot of cowboy action gun belts and I have to agree with Dwight on this one; I've never had a problem with a belt shrinking.

My cowboy action holsters are 9 oz. with a 7 oz. lining. I pretty much follow the John Bianchi method for wet fitting these holsters (from his DVDs). After running the holster under running cool tap water, I open up the holster with a bee's waxed hammer handle. I pay special attention to making the bottom of the pouch close to a cylinder in shape. Then I use a small leather cement bottle to open up where the revolver cylinder fits (Bianchi used a round leather maul in the DVD). Next I flair out the top lip of the holster for easy re-holstering. My last step is to place the revolvers in the holsters and let them sit there for a few hours. Bianchi only put the revolver in for a few minutes in his DVD, but I've never had a problem leaving them in longer. Sometimes with blued revolvers, I wrap them in one layer of plastic wrap.

With revolvers in the holsters, I lay them flat on my tooling granite slab for a few hours. Most of the time I put a little support under the bottom of the revolver grips so when the holsters dry they will not be flat against the body (most of the cowboy shooters I make rigs for want their pistol butts to be away from their body a little so they are easier to grab when on the timer).

Once they have sat for a few hours, I take the revolvers out and wipe them off and hit them with a little gun oil. I leave the holsters on the granite slab to dry. They are almost dry after sitting overnight, but most of the time it takes at least a day. After they dry, I check the fit with the revolvers again before dyeing the holsters. Please note that after dyeing and applying a leather finish, the holster may fit a little differently. If they are too tight I can open them up a little by carefully using my rubber cement bottle. Some other holster makers wrap the guns in several layers of plastic wrap and let them sit in the holsters for a day or two. If the fit is a little to loose I carefully squeeze the pouch of the holster with two hands (squeeze just a little and check the fit) until it feels right.

Good luck with your project. From what I can see from the pictures, you have done a good job so far.

Hi Mongo,

I really appreciate your input. I think when Chris Andre talks about adding an extra inch or so for shrinkage he's not talking about actual shrinkage but what you'll lose when you add the liner, etc plus taking into account the thickness of the completed belt when you put it around your circumference.

Pistol arrives Monday....my buddy did make me the drying box with 2 100 watt bulbs and a dimmer switch. I tried it today and had the temperature up to 130 degrees and was able to control it by using the dimmer switch.

I appreciate what you say about dyeing and the leather having a tendency to shrink some. I was careful after dyeing the belt to insert dummy rounds into the loops for the shells and leave them in until it dried.

Thanks,

Cliff