Third Saddle - Will James

[rktaylor]

I just finished this Will James that I started last July. Now I feel bad for asking Goldshot why his saddle took so long. This is my third saddle and I have tried to do something different on each one so I am learning something new. Lacing the swell cover was one of the new tasks. It’s a 15 inch seat on a Quality Mfg. tree. It’s Hermann Oak leather from Panhandle in Amarillo. Everything is hand sewn, but I have been looking for a machine.

Some of my struggles along the way were documented in these threads and a couple others.

Rigging Plates and Skirts: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=58791

I really struggled with this after I cut my skirts a little shallower than I wanted. I was ready to order more leather and redo them, but I got a lot of good advice for keeping them. I did change the rear rigging style which I think was a good decision. The original dees would have less movement than these. Plus I already had these dees that I didn’t use on another project. The rigging may be more prominent than some would want, but all in all I like the way it looks.

Cheyenne Roll: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=57986

This was my first Cheyenne roll though I did finish the one on my wife’s barrel saddle before I finished this one. With The roll and cantle binding this one was five pieces of leather whereas hers was only four (the cantle filler wasn’t part of the roll). I think I like four better, but sewing this went faster than I anticipated.

My daughter is coming home from college for the weekend, so we are going riding tomorrow.

Critiques are welcome and expected. Number 4 may be a ways down the line, but I want to learn.

Thanks,

Randy

Edited April 9, 2015 by rktaylor

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

You did a really good job on this saddle. I like the shape of your cantle roll. Your lacing looks good and flat. Now, here's my suggestions: work on your horn cap, you need to edge it where it is rounded off more and not so flat on the edge. From the rear your cantle looks fat, maybe 5 pieces of leather is too much. Your tooling looks good, but a bead along the edge of your tooling would have added to your tooling. Example, the BW on you fenders would look more finished if you used a beader, then the camo, then the BW. The beader that I use is a no. 4 single edge Gomph edger. I've used swivel knife beaders, but they cut the leather and you still have to come back and use an edger to make a nice bead.

Little things make a big difference and they're easy. Try lacing your flank cinch billets with a triangular lacing other than the loop type you used. This will fancy up your work and is simple. Again, your cantle came out good, I say this because Cheyenne rolls always give me pain when making them.

Also, was this tree made by Sonny Felkins in Utah? If so, how long did it take to arrive?

Keep up the good work, Ron

[oltoot]

You are doing great. Just a few thoughts and suggestions from years of making and using and looking and changing.

I think that you will be happier with the day to day performance of your plate and for that matter all riggings if you tip the angle just slightly forward, IOW drop the back of the rig plate down about 1/4 " from the horizontal. The idea being that the natural or "home" pull line will be angled just slightly forward so that the saddle in use will be held ever so slightly forward and not sliding back. Things are going to try to get straight on the horse's body so use that to the advantage of all concerned.

Having been through a few Cheyenne rolls now, make it a practice to take each of the pieces that make up that thing off between initial and final and using A 1" French edger to skive that fold down. A long taper on each side of center makes it not only thinner where all comes together but makes it bend better and sew better. Not so thin, of course, so as to make the roll turn out floppy but that happy medium. BTW the seat leather should be French edged only on the outside. That part of the leather that is covered by the cantle binding doesn't need to be nearly as substantial as the seat side.

Consider (after much observation and thought) not lacing or sewing your skirts together in back. This is one of those things that only comes into play every many many horses but once in a great while undesirable weight and friction will be brought to bear on a thin or naturally bony horse or with too much junk tied on behind the cantle. I see lots of disasters in the making with the bigger and bigger nylon combo packs being promoted for back country use. Even if it doesn't take the hide off, it's gotta be uncomfortable. I know, it could be considered giving in to the tiny percentage of possibilities but I for one have become more and more sympathetic to the poor horse's lot in this relationship. They give and give and just endure a lot without complaining until they just can't stand it and then they often get blamed for being idiots. Just my opinions on these matters.

Edited April 9, 2015 by oltoot

[rktaylor]

Ron,

I agree with you on the horn cap. I also need a better pattern for the wrap. I don't think it fit as good as I wanted. I need a little more work on my edges too. I am starting to get real picky and I figure that's a good sign. A beader is on my list. I was going to order a swivel knife beader from Barry King, but am reconsidering it now. I just dropped a pretty good chunk on tolls from Bruce Johnson. It's probably already in a box so adding an edger is too late. Anyway, I want to get a little more creative on my borders. I thought about the triangular lacing pattern on the billets, but haven't figured the pattern out yet. I will see if it's in any books that I have and it won't take long to redo it. To be honest though, I just wanted to get this together and cinch it on a horse. I have spent to much time building saddles and not enough time using them.

The tree is from Sonny Felkins and is easily the best I have seen, but that's a pretty small sample. It took about 8-10 weeks, but there were a couple hang ups with the order. It was definitely worth the wait and I know Oltoot speaks highly of their trees.

Oltoot,

Thanks for the tips on riggings and Cheyenne rolls. I kind of followed the Harry Adams book on the first Cheyenne roll and he doesn't roll the cantle filler over into the Cheyenne roll. That seemed to work out well for me and since it's a little shorter it doesn't look as bulky as this one. I can see where the skiving would help me get a tighter fit.

If I stick with my philosophy of building something different, then I don't know what #4 will be. Maybe I should let you guys vote on it. I have made two flat plates and two Cheyenne rolls, so I don't think it will have either of those.

I didn't lace my skirts all the way to the edge for the reason you state. Plus they are pretty short and curved back in some, so I hope they won't sore a horse. Regardless, point well taken. I need to learn more about saddle fit, so that should be a good undertaking before I begin the process again.

Randy

[Billy H]

My Hat is off to you Randy!

Being your 3rd saddle you have done a really nice job. Regards Billy

[Josh Ashman]

That's a great looking saddle Randy, really a nice job!

All the best, Josh

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Oltoot took all the words right out of my mouth, particularly about tipping the rigging and lacing the skirts. The rigging angle takes fussing with to get right, and can differ from horse to horse. It was the first thing I saw when I looked at your saddle. Level on the stand does not equal level on the horse. I also do not lace my skirts (anymore) for exactly the reasons toot stated. The Cheyenne roll takes practice to figure out what works good (about like everything else). Sometimes mine look good, sometimes not as much. Congratulations on finishing #3! I have 2 in progress that will have to wait now until the spring rush slows down, which could be next winter!

[rdl123]

Randy,

Congratulations - Really nice job!

It's neat to see your progression from saddle to saddle.

Ron L

[Goldshot Ron]

Randy,

I came across a diagram of how to tie the flank billet braid. The point can go up or down, that's up to you.

Ron

[rktaylor]

Thanks to all for the 'attaboys' and the tutorial on billet ties. I rode 10-12 miles last week and really enjoyed it. The ol' mare never complained either. When I put the saddle on the rack, I understood what Oltoot and Big Sioux were saying about the rigging. It certainly works, but it's an area for improvement.

Thanks again for the comments,

Randy

[OldRedMule]

So pretty and well done!

[OldRedMule]

I do have a question for some of the experienced people on this thread, even though it is really old. I wonder how many saddles Randy has done by now. When you say don't lace the skirts, do you mean not at all or just half way or what. I am on my second saddle and have not done that part yet. I was not going to lace it all the way but I had planned on about 2/3 or 1/2 of the way so it could flex. Same on the jocky, or maybe sew in a really short center piece. I do have the skirts scooped in a bit at the back like Randy did in his. I might even post a few pictures in a few days. 

[EdOdgers]

OldRedMule,

Here's a response I made to an older post that may address your question on lacing skirts.  There were some photos in the post as well.  You could look up the whole discussion under "Building my first mule saddle."  Here is the exerted response:

 

Posted April 9, 2020

Its imperative to maintain clearance over the spine for both horses and mules, no exceptions.  Design and construction principles won't vary between a mule and horse saddle.  The spinal process (ridge of bone extending vertically) of each vertebrae is not covered by muscle and is very near the surface along the top-line, making it vulnerable to injury.  That's why our saddle trees have a gullet under the fork and the bars are spaced about 3" apart.  That clearance should continue under the cantle where there is another "gullet" or arched area to create clearance.  Skirts should be "blocked" or "bedded" to the tree bars such that the skirts are molded away and don't apply pressure to the horses back.  When blocking skirts, you'll need to mold the skirts up into the gullet under the cantle and continue that arch to rearward to the bar tips.   In addition to proper blocking, the angle of the cut on the skirts where they come together behind the cantle needs to cause the joined skirts to flare upward, continuing the angle of the bar.  When cinched down, you should be able to slip your hand under the skirts behind the cantle fairly easily until the bars are encountered.  Beyond the bars, the skirts shouldn't apply pressure to the back, period.  Thus the saying "ride the tree, not the skirts" is important for saddle makers to adhere to.  If the saddle maker hasn't molded the skirts to maintain that arched tunnel under the cantle and behind it, or if the skirts aren't cut properly to angle up up away from the horse behind the cantle, there will be pressure and friction that may sore a horse or mule in the loin area.  This is a fairly common but easily avoided problem.   Lacing the skirts together can add to the problem by not allowing the skirts to flex away from the horse.  Also, the added thickness of the lace can cause a pressure point.  All this is avoidable with proper blocking and the proper angle on the skirts where they join.  The problem is caused by improper construction, not just the lacing.  A properly built saddle can have the skirts laced together and maintain good clearance.  That said, lacing the skirts together is not essential and could be eliminated if you made other provisions to secure the skirts to the tree.  My practice is to install two screws through the skirt edges and up into the gullet of the cantle.  This helps secure the skirts and ensures that the arch I molded into the skirts is maintained.  I normally lace the skirts together behind the cantle but haven't always.  I usually don't lace past the bar tips and not so far back as to be visible from under the jockeys.  Leaving the last few inches of the skirts unlaced allows the skirts to flex away from the horse if the saddle happened to be used on a horse with unusually prominent muscles on their croup.  Occasionally I have laced all the way to the back of the skirts as a design feature.  This shouldn't cause any pressure or problem if you have designed ample upward flare to the back of the skirts.  If you don't lace the skirts together, I suggest the previously mentioned screws into the gullet of the cantle and stitching pockets onto the topside of the skirts to slip the bar tips into.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by EdOdgers

[rktaylor]

On 6/8/2021 at 11:13 AM, OldRedMule said:

I wonder how many saddles Randy has done by now.

I am just starting #11. Thanks for reviving this thread. It reminds of some things that I've learned and others that should still receive focus.

Randy

[OldRedMule]

Thank you for the great explanation Ed. I will pay attention to this when I get to those parts. I would like to understand if that is 2 screws on each side or just one on each side. I am thinking you are saying to put the screw on the edge of each skirt past the edge of the bar and at the inside edges of the cantle arch in a way that won’t interfere with the spine? I am not sure if you use them ever, but I did put some bar risers in this saddle on the top side of the seat bars, as the animal has a few knots on its spine and I felt needed the extra height.
 

Randy that is cool, I hope I get to 11. I am really liking this, if my hands will only hold up. Saddle is on hold until fall. Working on other projects for the summer.

Thanks guys!

[OldRedMule]

EdOgers, I saw the screw placement on another thread. Thank you for all of your input and support to all of us. All of you are so wonderful. I also want to share that I received my Dennis Lane fitting kit and am so excited to use it. Now I just need to know about tree makers that will use it. Denise Nikkles sent me a couple, Dusty Smith and Ben Swanke, but I would like to widen my options by just gathering info. anyone? Maybe I should start or find a thread about this already out there?

I will do that too.

[EdOdgers]

Photo shows screw placement to secure skirts to tree and ensure the "gullet" under the cantle provides ample clearance for spine.  Before blocking in skirts, I place a piece of leather in the cantle gullet to simulate the combined thickness of the cantle-back and jockeys.  Thus, during final assembly the skirts will be bedded to the correct, finished depth in the cantle gullet.  I also put a small brad nail dead center through the spacer leather in the gullet and leave about 1/2" protruding.  I use a nippers to cut off the head of the protruding nail and then force the seam between the skirts over the nail to assure my skirts are centered on the back of the tree.

Dusty or Ben and Caleb will build you a good tree and understand how to interpret your Lane card results.

[EdOdgers]

OldRedMule,

Responding to your question about bar risers under the strainer:  Yes I put in risers under my strainer but not to increase the clearance over the spine.  I do so to create clearance for the stirrup leathers and initiate the shape of the groundseat.  Clearance over the spine, even on a mule, should be adequate with the combined thicknesses of the bars, the skirts and the sheepskin.  If more is desired, a saddle pad with the entire spine cut out would be a better choice as a standard pad will want to bridge across the bars regardless of how deep you made the "tunnel."  The downside of your approach is that you are elevating the seat for the rider.  I want to keep the rider as close to the horse, or mule, as is practical.  You can see in the photo below that I have carved the risers down to the tree in the "pocket" region of the seat (low point).  The strainer will be in contact with the tree at the pocket and there will be very little leather left on the final groundseat layer in that location.  The reference mark on the risers is 3" behind the back of the stirrup leathers.  There are two places I want the seat to be as close as the tree will allow: the pocket and over the stirrup leathers at the bottom of the bars.

[Squilchuck]

About trees made from Dennis Lane measurements.  I've had four Buster Welch ranch cutter trees made by Bowden from DL measurements and all fit very true. The rawhide work was a bit lumpy in places, but those could be smoothed.  The one I had made this last winter of 2020-21 was about $475 as I recall. I had a regular tree from Timberline and it fit well and the finish was very good. -John

[EdOdgers]

On 7/7/2021 at 7:00 PM, EdOdgers said:

Photo shows screw placement to secure skirts to tree and ensure the "gullet" under the cantle provides ample clearance for spine.  Before blocking in skirts, I place a piece of leather in the cantle gullet to simulate the combined thickness of the cantle-back and jockeys.  Thus, during final assembly the skirts will be bedded to the correct, finished depth in the cantle gullet.  I also put a small brad nail dead center through the spacer leather in the gullet and leave about 1/2" protruding.  I use a nippers to cut off the head of the protruding nail and then force the seam between the skirts over the nail to assure my skirts are centered on the back of the tree.

Dusty or Ben and Caleb will build you a good tree and understand how to interpret your Lane card results.

Here's photo of spacer and nail to align skirts for blocking.

[OldRedMule]

Ed, thank you for your feedback. The pictures are great and I really like that little jig thing in the cantle!

I will probably go with a custom tree. Or maybe one custom and one from a more production type company using the Lane kit and see how they compare. I will probably do so soon in order to be able to build after hunting season.

Thanks again.

And thank you too John (both posts!)

Ollie