Members OldRedMule Posted June 8, 2021 Members Report Posted June 8, 2021 So pretty and well done! Quote
Members OldRedMule Posted June 8, 2021 Members Report Posted June 8, 2021 I do have a question for some of the experienced people on this thread, even though it is really old. I wonder how many saddles Randy has done by now. When you say don't lace the skirts, do you mean not at all or just half way or what. I am on my second saddle and have not done that part yet. I was not going to lace it all the way but I had planned on about 2/3 or 1/2 of the way so it could flex. Same on the jocky, or maybe sew in a really short center piece. I do have the skirts scooped in a bit at the back like Randy did in his. I might even post a few pictures in a few days. Quote
Members EdOdgers Posted June 8, 2021 Members Report Posted June 8, 2021 (edited) OldRedMule, Here's a response I made to an older post that may address your question on lacing skirts. There were some photos in the post as well. You could look up the whole discussion under "Building my first mule saddle." Here is the exerted response: Posted April 9, 2020 Its imperative to maintain clearance over the spine for both horses and mules, no exceptions. Design and construction principles won't vary between a mule and horse saddle. The spinal process (ridge of bone extending vertically) of each vertebrae is not covered by muscle and is very near the surface along the top-line, making it vulnerable to injury. That's why our saddle trees have a gullet under the fork and the bars are spaced about 3" apart. That clearance should continue under the cantle where there is another "gullet" or arched area to create clearance. Skirts should be "blocked" or "bedded" to the tree bars such that the skirts are molded away and don't apply pressure to the horses back. When blocking skirts, you'll need to mold the skirts up into the gullet under the cantle and continue that arch to rearward to the bar tips. In addition to proper blocking, the angle of the cut on the skirts where they come together behind the cantle needs to cause the joined skirts to flare upward, continuing the angle of the bar. When cinched down, you should be able to slip your hand under the skirts behind the cantle fairly easily until the bars are encountered. Beyond the bars, the skirts shouldn't apply pressure to the back, period. Thus the saying "ride the tree, not the skirts" is important for saddle makers to adhere to. If the saddle maker hasn't molded the skirts to maintain that arched tunnel under the cantle and behind it, or if the skirts aren't cut properly to angle up up away from the horse behind the cantle, there will be pressure and friction that may sore a horse or mule in the loin area. This is a fairly common but easily avoided problem. Lacing the skirts together can add to the problem by not allowing the skirts to flex away from the horse. Also, the added thickness of the lace can cause a pressure point. All this is avoidable with proper blocking and the proper angle on the skirts where they join. The problem is caused by improper construction, not just the lacing. A properly built saddle can have the skirts laced together and maintain good clearance. That said, lacing the skirts together is not essential and could be eliminated if you made other provisions to secure the skirts to the tree. My practice is to install two screws through the skirt edges and up into the gullet of the cantle. This helps secure the skirts and ensures that the arch I molded into the skirts is maintained. I normally lace the skirts together behind the cantle but haven't always. I usually don't lace past the bar tips and not so far back as to be visible from under the jockeys. Leaving the last few inches of the skirts unlaced allows the skirts to flex away from the horse if the saddle happened to be used on a horse with unusually prominent muscles on their croup. Occasionally I have laced all the way to the back of the skirts as a design feature. This shouldn't cause any pressure or problem if you have designed ample upward flare to the back of the skirts. If you don't lace the skirts together, I suggest the previously mentioned screws into the gullet of the cantle and stitching pockets onto the topside of the skirts to slip the bar tips into. Edited June 8, 2021 by EdOdgers Quote
rktaylor Posted June 14, 2021 Author Report Posted June 14, 2021 On 6/8/2021 at 11:13 AM, OldRedMule said: I wonder how many saddles Randy has done by now. I am just starting #11. Thanks for reviving this thread. It reminds of some things that I've learned and others that should still receive focus. Randy Quote
Members OldRedMule Posted July 7, 2021 Members Report Posted July 7, 2021 Thank you for the great explanation Ed. I will pay attention to this when I get to those parts. I would like to understand if that is 2 screws on each side or just one on each side. I am thinking you are saying to put the screw on the edge of each skirt past the edge of the bar and at the inside edges of the cantle arch in a way that won’t interfere with the spine? I am not sure if you use them ever, but I did put some bar risers in this saddle on the top side of the seat bars, as the animal has a few knots on its spine and I felt needed the extra height. Randy that is cool, I hope I get to 11. I am really liking this, if my hands will only hold up. Saddle is on hold until fall. Working on other projects for the summer. Thanks guys! Quote
Members OldRedMule Posted July 7, 2021 Members Report Posted July 7, 2021 EdOgers, I saw the screw placement on another thread. Thank you for all of your input and support to all of us. All of you are so wonderful. I also want to share that I received my Dennis Lane fitting kit and am so excited to use it. Now I just need to know about tree makers that will use it. Denise Nikkles sent me a couple, Dusty Smith and Ben Swanke, but I would like to widen my options by just gathering info. anyone? Maybe I should start or find a thread about this already out there? I will do that too. Quote
Members EdOdgers Posted July 8, 2021 Members Report Posted July 8, 2021 Photo shows screw placement to secure skirts to tree and ensure the "gullet" under the cantle provides ample clearance for spine. Before blocking in skirts, I place a piece of leather in the cantle gullet to simulate the combined thickness of the cantle-back and jockeys. Thus, during final assembly the skirts will be bedded to the correct, finished depth in the cantle gullet. I also put a small brad nail dead center through the spacer leather in the gullet and leave about 1/2" protruding. I use a nippers to cut off the head of the protruding nail and then force the seam between the skirts over the nail to assure my skirts are centered on the back of the tree. Dusty or Ben and Caleb will build you a good tree and understand how to interpret your Lane card results. Quote
Members EdOdgers Posted July 8, 2021 Members Report Posted July 8, 2021 OldRedMule, Responding to your question about bar risers under the strainer: Yes I put in risers under my strainer but not to increase the clearance over the spine. I do so to create clearance for the stirrup leathers and initiate the shape of the groundseat. Clearance over the spine, even on a mule, should be adequate with the combined thicknesses of the bars, the skirts and the sheepskin. If more is desired, a saddle pad with the entire spine cut out would be a better choice as a standard pad will want to bridge across the bars regardless of how deep you made the "tunnel." The downside of your approach is that you are elevating the seat for the rider. I want to keep the rider as close to the horse, or mule, as is practical. You can see in the photo below that I have carved the risers down to the tree in the "pocket" region of the seat (low point). The strainer will be in contact with the tree at the pocket and there will be very little leather left on the final groundseat layer in that location. The reference mark on the risers is 3" behind the back of the stirrup leathers. There are two places I want the seat to be as close as the tree will allow: the pocket and over the stirrup leathers at the bottom of the bars. Quote
Members Squilchuck Posted July 8, 2021 Members Report Posted July 8, 2021 About trees made from Dennis Lane measurements. I've had four Buster Welch ranch cutter trees made by Bowden from DL measurements and all fit very true. The rawhide work was a bit lumpy in places, but those could be smoothed. The one I had made this last winter of 2020-21 was about $475 as I recall. I had a regular tree from Timberline and it fit well and the finish was very good. -John Quote
Members EdOdgers Posted July 9, 2021 Members Report Posted July 9, 2021 On 7/7/2021 at 7:00 PM, EdOdgers said: Photo shows screw placement to secure skirts to tree and ensure the "gullet" under the cantle provides ample clearance for spine. Before blocking in skirts, I place a piece of leather in the cantle gullet to simulate the combined thickness of the cantle-back and jockeys. Thus, during final assembly the skirts will be bedded to the correct, finished depth in the cantle gullet. I also put a small brad nail dead center through the spacer leather in the gullet and leave about 1/2" protruding. I use a nippers to cut off the head of the protruding nail and then force the seam between the skirts over the nail to assure my skirts are centered on the back of the tree. Dusty or Ben and Caleb will build you a good tree and understand how to interpret your Lane card results. Here's photo of spacer and nail to align skirts for blocking. Quote
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