Here we go. saddle tree test. Carbon fiber verses hide

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

This is a test of the strength of a carbon fiber and a hide saddle tree. The hide tree is from large and old saddle tree manufactor in the United States. The strongest tree they make. Not sure what company. I think it may even have fiberglass underneath the hide. I think this is a full carbon fiber tree. No wood underneath. Ether way it is impressive. The carbon fiber saddle tree doesn't move. 60 to 80 % lighter then hide covered wooden trees.

[Johanna]

I'm not a horse person, but this doesn't seem like a fair way to compare trees because a truck running over a tree does not provide the same stresses a tree would be subject to in real life situations. My mom's car weighs several tons less than my truck, and in an accident, she is more likely to be injured than I am because her car sits lower than my truck. However, she gets double or triple the gas mileage that I do. So is my truck "better" than her car because I am less likely to be killed? You can't compare apples and oranges.

JMO- YMMV

Johanna

[Alan Bell]

That test just proves the superiority of the hide covered tree for making saddles to put on horses! The carbon fiber tree has no 'life' to it. You might as well use a piece of steel across the horses back! As Johanna points out the test is not really a fair one if we are judging how well the trees would perform for their intended uses. If we want a tree that will not flex and is rigid and has no life to it then we are not considering the horse IMHO.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[rdb]

Way back when, in some tree discussion, I suggested that carbon fiber would be the newest advancement. Since I know very little about saddles and such, I was rightfully ignored. There are still problems with it, I'm sure...like how easy is it to nail into, etc. A saddler can adjust, but if he or she needs three hands to make a saddle, that might be a detriment.

Johanna is absolutely correct, I don't know any riders who have been run over by a truck, and since many old wooden treed saddles are still around, I would think this demo speaks only to relative strength, not viability.

From everything (or what little I know..lol) I have learned here, it's not so much how or what the tree is made of, but the skill of the maker, and their ability to design and build the correct fitting, and viable product. But I'm still amazed at modern science and it's ability to create some fascinating things.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

a truck running over a tree does not provide the same stresses a tree would be subject to in real life situations.

I agree Johanna. On the other hand, its kind of fun to do! This is a picture where we did the same thing. This is the front end of the half ton sitting on one of our trees. The quality of materials and construction techniques used do make a difference in strength. Note: The “quality control department” had cut the lace and peeled back the rawhide when it was not yet dry to check that section of bar. It didn’t pass muster, which is why we got to drive over it! And even with that spot open, it didn't break the bar.

SITTINGUPHIGH1 – where did you get these pictures? I keep trying to figure out them out. There are at least 3 different rawhide trees in these pictures since the hardware on the first, second and fourth are all different. I can’t tell on the one squashed by the tire. And why are there bolts extending through both sides of the front of the “bar” in the first picture? I am not all that versed in English saddles, but I have seen an English tree that was a black plastic of some sort with a built in seat (broken) so some are made with the seats built in as these ones are. On the other hand, these have “bars” that extend out beyond the cantle. Are they a cross bred Aussie tree? Either way, built in ground seats aren’t “traditional” for them either. I don’t know of anyone who makes a built in rawhide seat – just fiberglass or other synthetics – so that is at least part of the covering on these trees.

We are not the ones who will run with carbon fiber technology, but I am curious about it. Is it something you have to pour into a mold? Or can it be shaped or carved on its own? Can it be used to overlay something? It is mega-strong, but how flexible is it? Too much flex is not a good thing (despite the number of flex trees out there). Anyone know anything about this stuff? rbd?

Edited November 21, 2008 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[rdb]

I have done a little research on it for some projects I had in mind. It was a bit pricey to experiment with at the time for me. As far as I know, it is not poured. I have seen extruded pipe, etc, so at least a molten form can be used, but in general, I have seen it as a cloth type, which you bond to the next layer, similar to a fiberglass cloth buildup over a mold. It is VERY stiff, not flexible when built up like this. My concern would be the ability to nail into, not sure if you can. If you can't, then drilling holes to tack to would be a pain, I would think, just don't know for sure. It seems the lightness of the finished product, and the durability would be well worth a tree maker to explore, though.

[JAM]

I made my first saddle with a carbon-fiber/kevlar covered tree - over wood - and it was very lightweight. I anticipated difficulty nailing into it, but really there was no difficulty at all.

Julia

[barra]

Are they a cross bred Aussie tree? Either way, built in ground seats aren’t “traditional” for them either.

That first tree has me intrigued too.

Barra.

[tonyc1]

Some handgun parts are carbon fibre these days.

Tony

[Denise]

Is Kevlar and carbon fiber the same thing?

[grumpyguy]

Hello all,

Denise, No, Kevlar and carbon fiber are different.

Kevlar enjoys a reputation for being hard to penetrate hence the use in Military helmets and bullet reistant vest. It can be used in hard resins like the helmet application or it can be woven to make a semi flexible fabric which in many layers will resist puncture by blunt objects moving at several hundred feet per second and stop some projectiles. Sharp or pointed objects under enough force can and will penetrat Kevlar. Kevlar is often times a white, cream or golden colored fiber which sometimes has the appearance similar to woven fiberglass. Meat cutters in high production shops will use kevlar gloves to guard against cutting or slicing themselves while cutting and trimming meat products.

Carbon fiber will almost always be used in resin for structural applications where strength with some flexibility might be desired along with weight as a consideration. The areo space and car industry have made use of these materials. Carbon fiber is dark grey or dull black material usually woven like fiberglass. There are other types and uses as well but these are the usual uses and what we normally see. Some fishing rods use a resin with carbon spheres as well as long unwoven fibers.

Carbon fiber could be used in a very light weight tree. It would have to be much thinner than wood to get much flexibility out of it. So maybe in a super close contact saddle of very light weight it maybe superior to wood and rawhide. Now that I have said that, I would also say for the purpose of the western saddle, It could be used as a covering of wood. I don't think you would have the flex you would have with rawhide. I'm a traditionalist in that I believe the wood rawhide combination is at this time the best material for western saddle trees as the resin impregnated fibers usually are too stiff for my taste.

I have a hard time seeing any benefit to kevlar in a tree.

I can only imagine that others will strongly disagree but several hundred years of horsemen can't be ignored. Starting with the ealiest riders, wood and rawhide combination have for centuries been held as the best material for saddle trees. Granted we have more materials availbe to us than those early horsemen. To date I have not seen a material that best the wood and rawhide.

Sittinguphigh, Is that wood and rawhide tree a Jennifer style cavalry saddle? (A pattern developed and used by southern saddlers making saddles for Confederate officers during the civil war.) It's fork is too thin to be a Mc Clellan but the bars and cantel resemble that type of saddle. That particular tree design was never known for strength in the first place. A production western tree would not do well under the same abuse but they are considerably stronger. The custom trees are a much different story as the example Rod and Denise show us.

Edited November 24, 2008 by grumpyguy

[jwwright]

I don't suppose that this debate will end any time soon. To each his/her own, I say.

Personally, I like a good fiberglass covered tree, and am building on those made by Ray Lewis and Jon Watsabaugh.

Troy West wrote a couple of good paragraphs on this subject in the is forum a while back. You can find it here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...40&start=40 It is well worth reading, in my opinion.

JW

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I agree Johanna. On the other hand, its kind of fun to do! This is a picture where we did the same thing. This is the front end of the half ton sitting on one of our trees. The quality of materials and construction techniques used do make a difference in strength. Note: The "quality control department" had cut the lace and peeled back the rawhide when it was not yet dry to check that section of bar. It didn't pass muster, which is why we got to drive over it! And even with that spot open, it didn't break the bar.

SITTINGUPHIGH1 – where did you get these pictures? I keep trying to figure out them out. There are at least 3 different rawhide trees in these pictures since the hardware on the first, second and fourth are all different. I can't tell on the one squashed by the tire. And why are there bolts extending through both sides of the front of the "bar" in the first picture? I am not all that versed in English saddles, but I have seen an English tree that was a black plastic of some sort with a built in seat (broken) so some are made with the seats built in as these ones are. On the other hand, these have "bars" that extend out beyond the cantle. Are they a cross bred Aussie tree? Either way, built in ground seats aren't "traditional" for them either. I don't know of anyone who makes a built in rawhide seat – just fiberglass or other synthetics – so that is at least part of the covering on these trees.

We are not the ones who will run with carbon fiber technology, but I am curious about it. Is it something you have to pour into a mold? Or can it be shaped or carved on its own? Can it be used to overlay something? It is mega-strong, but how flexible is it? Too much flex is not a good thing (despite the number of flex trees out there). Anyone know anything about this stuff? rbd?

Here is the site I found the carbon fiber tree in Rod

http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html

Check it out. let me know what you think. It's good to see the classic saddle tree can hold up to a strength test.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

Alot of questions come up with this test. At least for me.

Should saddle trees move or not? On this forum and others I have read both opinions. People don't like flex trees because they move. Then people don't like fiber glass or carbon fiber cause they don't move.

The construction on the inside of the carbon fiber saddle trees are made of a type of foam. You can nail and screw into them. Pound for pound Carbon fiber is strong them hide or fiber glass. There is no doubt. Just look at the figures and tests in the science world. Carbon fiber and fiber glass in water proof, easer to cover, less labor intensive.

I like the hide covered trees myself. But you have to become impartial with progress.

There never used to to saddle trees at one time. The horses were ridden bare back.

Should we go back to riding bare?

One thing never changes. You have to buld it right with the right materials and the right way. Hide, fiber glass or fiber carbon.

Things you need. Fit the horse, fit the rider, strength, longivaty. And people today weight is a factor.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

I like a my furniture wood not plastic. I like the idea of a all natural saddle tree. But if I need a tool to do a job give me a strong and long lasting tool. We use to not ride in a saddle. All bare back. Should we go back to riding bare back? But you have to become impartial with progress. Carbon fiber is the strongest, more durable, cuts done on labor cost. The prices on carbon fiber are now reasonable. The important thing is can you make it fit the rider and horse. I think you can. One way is to make a tree out of wood or a light material and use carbon fiber to cover it. Problem with saddles is the horses changes. So you have a choice buy a new saddle every time the horse changes. Or modify the tree. Or replace the tree. Some times you can modify the tree. If you can't then replacing the tree is a must. Making the saddle easer to tear down and put back together would help to. The old mountain man saddles were very simple. Easy to fix and light. Another way is to make the bars with carbon fiber from a casting. I think less labor cost and fits the horse right.

Saddle and saddle tree making used to be a craft. Now a days it has turn into more of a art form. Which is not a bad thing. I do alot of miles on my horse. So function comes first.

The way of science is to test something. To take it to the limits. This gives you a idea how strong something is. As far as saddle tree are conceded. A horse can wieght from 900 to

No matter what way you build your saddle trees what matters is materials and how you build it. Strength, longevity, fit and looks.

[Blake]

So what is it that you are trying to sell?

Blake

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

Ha ha funny. Just putting a different point of view. Always keep a open mind. I always try to look at things from the person eyes.

People shouldn't have to wait a year for a good saddle tree or saddle that fits there horse. Would you not want to ride your horse for a year because you were waiting for a saddle or a saddle tree? I think there should be a quicker way but correct way to get a saddle tree and saddle. Maybe nothing fancy but it works. Not everyone can afford a expensive saddle and saddle tree ether. I'm always looking for better and faster ways to do things. Like a new thing coming out is a pressure pad that can measure the pressure on the horse's back from the saddle tree. I think that will change the way saddles and saddle trees are made in the furture.

[greg gomersall]

The pressure mapping pad is not new. Why not tell us your real name to put some credability behind your statements. Maybe more of us would be willing to discuss this with you if we knew who we were talking to. Greg

[bruce johnson]

Do you make these trees or build on them? I am kind of like some others, confused about what you are asking and whose trees you are showing - and why. The pressure pads are nothing new. The biggest problem with the newer materials is that most of them are molded, and molds need to be made for every shape. Otherwise they would be whittled on and shaped by hand or machine - just like wood is right now. It wouldn't be any faster. The nail and screw holding properties of the synthetics still haven't been worked out.

The issue with your statement about getting them to fit your horse brings up questions we have gone into detail on here in other threads. How do you measure, or how do you determine what you consider the proper bar shape? If you are building these trees, please enlighten us on how you shape or rehape them as your horse changes that much? If you are building saddles on them, how are they to build on and who is buying them? Do you build or work on the mountain man saddles? I haven't seen a recent picture of anyone making them. I'd like to see that.

Your comment about cost and waiting time must be pointed at custom handmade saddle and tree makers - as of right now they are about the only ones who can give you much choice about what you seem to be talking about. What is the issue with paying for what you want? Or waiting for the probably single man shop to get you on the waiting list, ordering what you want, and building it? If you are looking for fast service and lower prices then economy of scale is what you are asking for - and those companies are working shorter hours and some are closing the doors. Do the math on what the materials costs are on a saddle, then look at the price tag on most factory or all internet sold models. The corners were cut somewhere labor, materials, or both. If you are building or rebuilding saddles you know what I mean. The handmakers charging a fair price are not the problem.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

The saddle tree in the picture has a light wieght foam inside it. You can use nails and screws with them very well. So the saddle maker tells me. He uses them in all his saddles. I don't know if they sale saddle trees. I think they only sale there saddles.

http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html

The pressure testing pads have been used in the medical profession a while. They used them for many reasons but one is to help people in wheel chairs. But they haven't been that good to use with horses. They are a lot better now and use blue tooth. I am looking into the cost of buying one. I think that will be the future for custom saddles and trees.

I agree that the problem is going to be making a custom fit to the horse. But just a thought. Lets say you make a casting of your horses back. Then build a mold on the casting for the bottom of the bars. You can do it with carbon fiber or a liquid foam. You could ever make two casting in carbon fiber on each side and flip it over for the top of the bars. The inside of coarse could be construction foam or liquid contruction foam.

Well as far reshaping a saddle tree. If the bar needs to be changed. If you have a medical pressure pad it will tell you were the pressure is to much. There are different ways to do the change. One is to build up the bottom of the bar were need with leather. The other way would be to attach a shape hard pad to the bottom of the bar. Or you can also adjust a hard pad to make up the difference. I don't know if that would work that well. Know I been researching and working on this for a while. I been using my experance as a cabnet maker, tool and die maker. I have used my knowelge of horse movements, kineslogy and biomechanics. It's a pasion of mine.

While as far as the economy. It's going to be a long one. Maybe 5 to 10 year before it gets better.

So I think offering a good product that doesn't take so long and is affordable. That's the sale person in me. For one the suspension saddles seems like a good idea. Less work and comfortable at least that what I heard and read. The fact is the pressure on the horse is even out threw this kind of seat. The amish and the canadian troops use these kind of saddles.

http://tarpinhill.net/history/index.html

Don't get me wrong I like toughness and stability of the ranch saddles a lot. But I see a need for this kind of saddle. I ride a lot of miles, up and down hills, running and trotting. I know a lot of people that ride hard. All have had custom saddles and store bought ones. It alway ends up being a hunt for a saddle that fits. Buying and selling tell in happens. One endurance rider I know said the best saddle she has is a 350.00 saddle. She said the custom one she had made hurts her horse. I also have probems with my horse and saddles. Tried a lot of different types. Finally made a skeleton templet of my horses back.

And found out factory saddles did fit my horse.

As far as screwing and nailing into a carbon fiber tree you have to use the right resin and caron fiber. The foam if used to form the base inside has to be the right stuff you can nail and screw into. To tell you the true I like working with wood, hide and leather. I have done cooper, steel, silver, gold metal work also.

I'm learning a lot about saddle making and saddle tree making threw this forum. This forum has a lot of great saddle and tree makers on it. With a lot of experance and knowlege. Hopefully I can blend the new with the old. Right now I'm still at the point were I keep coming up with more questions. How could this be done or that be done to make it work better. LOL

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

By the way my name is Mort Stevenson.

Just throwing some ideas around. I know this stuff may be old hat to this forum. Sorry if I going over old stuff.

[greg gomersall]

Mort I am not so niave to think that some day something will come along that will surpass a good handmade saddle wood and rawhide saddle tree. bob Wattrus from Australia has been making carbon fibre trees for several years now, Mark Howe here in the US is using some of them. As far as a cost saving unless you know something they are not letting us know it is very little.

As far as shimming the bottom of bars for pressure points as you were discribbing people do that with rawhide trees as well, I have not seen many done with any sucess. There is alot more to it than shimming one spot as generaly what you do there will interfere somewhere else as a horse goes thru its paces.

As far as offering a good product that does not take long I believe you will learn that if the product is good and does catch on (the 2 do not nessecarly work hand in hand) you will run into a major problem. the demand will increase to the point that you will not be able to keep up. Then you will have to decide whether to start a waitng list or hire staff, if you choose the latter you will lose some of the quality control you yourself would have.

People need to start paying attention to confirmation when they buy a horse, some backs do not hold a saddle well. The type of horse that cowboys and good horseman tend to ride are not hard to fit. When someone comes to me with a hard to fit horse story I pay attention to what the person says as from this you can figure out that generaly it is best to send them else where because they are gonna want some gimmick or a tree made to fit a horse of poor confirmation. The horse should be made into dog food and the person will either buy a different horse or get out of horses within 3 to 5 years and then there is a frak saddle on the market with your name on it. That saddle will end up being bought by someone who has heard the maker is good but has no clue to saddle fit and they will not be happy with the results they get so they will blame the saddle maker instead of the IDIOT that had a saddle made to fit a horse that wasn't worth saddling. Greg

[mulefool]

Truer words were never spoke, Greg. When I first started out I thought as a 'custom" maker it was my job to fit these horses. I was a little slow on the uptake, but eventually learned to send these folks somewhere else. Chris

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Mort,

It looks like you have been researching the net extensively. Looking at the site the pictures come from explains the rather different conformation and hardware on those trees. I couldn’t figure out why there was a bolt extending at least ¼”, if not more from the looks of it, though the bar in the first picture. That would damage a horse to uselessness in the first few seconds of a ride if used as is. So in looking at their site, this tree would probably have been designed and built for them specifically to use as the solid part of the tree to which they are attaching their flexible panels. It would not have been one of the tree company’s own designs. That would also probably explain why it split through the fork and cantle and not the bars which is generally the weakest part of a tree.

The idea of flexible panels very similar to these under a solid tree was a concept that Orthoflex saddles used a number of years ago. The company is no longer in existence as far as we know. The original Trooper saddles had rigid trees. The suspension has to do with the seat for the rider, not the bars on the horse.

The problem that must be overcome in a saddle is that rigid must contact flexible at some point. With a rigid tree, that interface is under the whole surface of the bar, spreading out the pressure. With a panel system or with flexible bars, that rigid/flexible interface is at whatever connection points there are between the two – either the attachment point of the panels, as in the first site, or at the ends of the arches, as in the second site you list, or the attachment points of the bars and fork, as in a lot of flexible bar trees today. These connection points have concentrated pressure under them – and that can sore the horse. Also, if bars are able to be easily bent with arm pressure, they will sag under a rider and not distribute their weight evenly across the full bar surface.

The only advantage I could see to carbon fiber would be its weight to strength ratio for recreational saddles. All the other problems of producing a tree and getting it to fit properly are the same as with any other material. We have heard that building on these trees is not easy, but that may vary with composition of the materials. I do know that we will not be the ones to explore that market niche. We hit the decision point Greg talked about within the first 3 years of starting up and we decided not to lower the standard on quality. Thus, our wait time and the lack of time or need for us to experiment with other materials.

[Alan Bell]

The saddle tree in the picture has a light wieght foam inside it. You can use nails and screws with them very well. So the saddle maker tells me. He uses them in all his saddles. I don't know if they sale saddle trees. I think they only sale there saddles.

http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html

The pressure testing pads have been used in the medical profession a while. They used them for many reasons but one is to help people in wheel chairs. But they haven't been that good to use with horses. They are a lot better now and use blue tooth. I am looking into the cost of buying one. I think that will be the future for custom saddles and trees.

I agree that the problem is going to be making a custom fit to the horse. But just a thought. Lets say you make a casting of your horses back. Then build a mold on the casting for the bottom of the bars. You can do it with carbon fiber or a liquid foam. You could ever make two casting in carbon fiber on each side and flip it over for the top of the bars. The inside of coarse could be construction foam or liquid contruction foam.

Well as far reshaping a saddle tree. If the bar needs to be changed. If you have a medical pressure pad it will tell you were the pressure is to much. There are different ways to do the change. One is to build up the bottom of the bar were need with leather. The other way would be to attach a shape hard pad to the bottom of the bar. Or you can also adjust a hard pad to make up the difference. I don't know if that would work that well. Know I been researching and working on this for a while. I been using my experance as a cabnet maker, tool and die maker. I have used my knowelge of horse movements, kineslogy and biomechanics. It's a pasion of mine.

While as far as the economy. It's going to be a long one. Maybe 5 to 10 year before it gets better.

So I think offering a good product that doesn't take so long and is affordable. That's the sale person in me. For one the suspension saddles seems like a good idea. Less work and comfortable at least that what I heard and read. The fact is the pressure on the horse is even out threw this kind of seat. The amish and the canadian troops use these kind of saddles.

http://tarpinhill.net/history/index.html

Don't get me wrong I like toughness and stability of the ranch saddles a lot. But I see a need for this kind of saddle. I ride a lot of miles, up and down hills, running and trotting. I know a lot of people that ride hard. All have had custom saddles and store bought ones. It alway ends up being a hunt for a saddle that fits. Buying and selling tell in happens. One endurance rider I know said the best saddle she has is a 350.00 saddle. She said the custom one she had made hurts her horse. I also have probems with my horse and saddles. Tried a lot of different types. Finally made a skeleton templet of my horses back.

And found out factory saddles did fit my horse.

As far as screwing and nailing into a carbon fiber tree you have to use the right resin and caron fiber. The foam if used to form the base inside has to be the right stuff you can nail and screw into. To tell you the true I like working with wood, hide and leather. I have done cooper, steel, silver, gold metal work also.

I'm learning a lot about saddle making and saddle tree making threw this forum. This forum has a lot of great saddle and tree makers on it. With a lot of experance and knowlege. Hopefully I can blend the new with the old. Right now I'm still at the point were I keep coming up with more questions. How could this be done or that be done to make it work better. LOL

Hello Sittinguphigh, I guess you are trying to re invent the wheel! I am a novice saddle maker and I like to do a lot of research too. If you found 1 endurance rider that felt the manufactured saddle fit her horse better than a custom saddle I can find 2 with custom saddles that say just the opposite so that argument becomes mute. If you are looking for a "better cheaper" way I'm reminded of what Neal Armstrong, the American test pilot said when asked what was the last thing he thought about before he flew in and experimental aircraft (he was the first to fly the 4000 mph X - 15)! They were expecting him to say he thought about his mom or maybe that he would be making history or the great achievement it would be for mankind but he said: "The last thing I think about before flying an experimental airplane is that it was built by the lowest bidder!" Cheaper isn't always better! If you are using pressure mapping to create the perfect bar shape it will only work in the imaginary "perfect world" where the rider is sitting perfectly balanced and the horse moves perfectly balanced. I've yet to see that. I've seen some really good riders and really good horses but at some point the rider will shift his/her weight or the horse will lean this way or that and your pressure map is all wrong. The best you can do is TRY to have the most bar surface you can in contact with the horses back MOST of the time. Unless I'm missing something and that is quite possible too! If you are trying to cut down on the wait time for a custom saddle most folks will by the cheap cheap saddle to ride for the year that they are waiting for their custom saddle and then sell the cheap cheap saddle....you can see them for sale on Ebay right now....Lots of em. If YOU are happy with the factory saddle you have now then that is great for you but you seem to be 'pushing' , 'peddling' , 'endorsing', 'recommending' , 'suggesting' that carbon fiber trees are the answer to all the horse world ailments and Xenophon would have ridden one if he had only been a little smarter. In other words...where is this conversation leading to? And by the way how is flipping the casting you've done for the bottom of the bars over going to make anything worthwhile for the shape on the top of the bars unless your butt is the inverted shape of the horses back? Just curious?

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell