Here we go. saddle tree test. Carbon fiber verses hide

[Alan Bell]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Then having a casting of a horse's back to work with would create a better fit. As long as you make the appropriate adjustments to the bar. Like flaring the edges.

You hear so many people talk about quarter horse bars, Arabian bars and mule bars. It sounds like you take every horse differently. And as you said fit the body type. That's what Double Diamond Equine has also found out using the there pressure pad system.

Here is a good question. What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

Mort, I think you are having a bit of trouble reading what has already been written. If I may be so bold as to speak for Rod and Denise (most of the time it is Denise you are talking to but Rod does touch the keys occasionally) They have said they use Dennis Lanes system to measure horses to get body type; they have said they do not change the tree for different disciplines. And you contradict yourself http://leatherworker.net/forum/style_emoti...usa_naughty.gif because on your post on Dec. 3rd you said Double Diamond's owner found that the industry was wrong about bar types and fitting the tree by type was not the way to go and they found this by using the pressure pad system and here you are saying the exact opposite was found by using the pressure system! That's the problem with re-inventing something .... it get's confusing (believe me I know just check some of MY old post!!) The bottom line as I see it is there are already solutions to the problems you seem to have with the saddle industry whether it is fit, cost, time or material and unless you can get a voice out of the burning bush or bring a plague of frogs or your staff can turn into a snake and eat all of the Pharaoh's magicians snakes you won't get any followers when you cross the sea. This is not a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" it's just simply "IT AIN'T BROKE"!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[oldtimer]

Flexibility

All trees flex. For that matter all materials flex, even a concrete tree would have some flex, just very little. Its a question of the degree of flexibily. For those interested just look up Youngs Modulus or Modulus of Elasticity. It is probably a study which someone should do: Just how fexible should a tree be? I think that too much flex accross the the front can cause problems. Its like having a very large "clothes-line peg" with a very strong spring placed accross the horse's back and then a load on it, so that as the horse moves the spring loaded peg moves up and down slightly but squeezeing all the time.

Just my humble opinion

dam

How much flex are we talking about in a rawhide covered tree ( or a carbon fibre tree) ? Fractions of an inch in any direction, so why bother about flex ? And what loads are we talking about to create this flex in a rigid saddle tree? Chevy trucks on horse back? I might have got it wrong? Enlighten me!

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise?

Both. We discuss what we want to say and I (Denise) often do the typing. If something is from Denise alone, I use my alter ego - Denise - to post it.

What do you measure on the horse to get the body type?

There are no names or categories for body types. We have built hundreds of trees based on verbal descriptions only. To be a bit more specific, we used to use back drawings as we described on our website. Dennis Lane's system has made that much easier. www.dennislane.com.au

So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

The principles of saddle fit don't change, regardless of what the saddle is used for.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

No not at all Alan. I was just confused because of the terminology used. Breed and body type of horses. How many body types of horses are there? As RND says no one has categories for them. It's Double Diamond Equine opinion that you can't fit a saddle tree to a breed and expect it to fit all of that breed. Like quarter horse saddle trees. Or Arabians saddle trees. I think that is what RND is saying also.

Alan if history and science has taught us any thing. There is always a better ways. Some times it comes slow and sometimes it comes fast. If not we would still be living in caves. And be hunter and gatherers. But these changes has to be tested. It took Einstian about 30 years for someone to prove his work. It took Einstian more then 10 years to come up with some of his ideas. I'm sure you do somethings different then you were taught. Because it works better for you that way.

As you can see I like to be a innovator not a copyer. But I do like to learn from the past. How do you know were your going unless you know were you have been.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

RND thank you for your insite on saddle trees. And the rest for you guys and gals.

I feel a open forum is great place to hear new and old things. What works and new ideas.

[Alan Bell]

Hey Mort, I guess we can agree to disagree but just because something is new or different does not across the board make it better and as far as history and science let's just say that I once met a man whose parents had set him on a path. He had never looked at incandescent light. He had never put a metal implement (spoon or fork) in his mouth. He had never drank water that had come out of a pipe. He had never listened to head phones or even talked in a telephone. He had not enjoyed our "modern conveniences"! Yet, in the darkest night when we would need a flash light to him it was like dusk. He could smell different people as they came around him and identify them. He could hear both ends of YOUR conversation on your phone from 5 feet away or so. He was as fit as a marathon runner and probably could have beaten most out there if he had seen a reason to compete but life was not about competition for him. By the time I met him we were both in our 20's yet I dare to say my overall health and fitness was maybe half of his (at least that is how I felt being around him) and I'm in fairly good shape and exercised regularly back then. I'd imagine he's lost very little of what he had because he is not allowing "modern conveniences" or "science" to take away from him what the Creator gave him. To him he is the "real" scientist, he and his parents that started the little experiment. Sorry for the total digression but your statement about science and history brought that to mind and I hadn't thought about it for a while.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[rickybobby]

Mort,

I believe the first tree they ran over was a Ortho-flex tree, the metal studs on the frt. bars are for the flex panels. That Co. was never the oldest saddle tree co. in the U.S. The website you posted for American-flex is all the same "sales" pitch that Ortho-flex gave people 10 years ago. It appears they are now in Europe. As a saddlemaker it is my interest to make sure the customer and their horses are comfortable and to turn out the best product I have learned to produce. I by no means know everything, I am only scratching the surface, learning from people here on this site that willingly give their advice and that are earning a living building saddles and perfecting their craft. I wanted to make this my second profession so I went to work in a saddleshop earning about 1/3 of what I made in my original profession, but this is what I choose to do to perfect this craft.

The questions you bring up are a concern for all of us (happy horse, happy rider) but by building some saddles and getting them on some horses you learn a lot. By building for yourself you can ride in it and take it home and make new skirts or change the rigging, this is how you learn to improve the things that make a big difference to the horse and rider. I built a saddle on a Ortho-flex tree and no I have not had trouble with it, it is used for pleasure riding. These saddles put the rider about 3 to 3 1/2 inches higher over the horses back than a "regular" saddle tree. I think this is a huge issue because the horse has to compensate for the weight being that far over their back and as far as close contact, forget it, it is not there.

Bottom line I think, is build on the best you can in what is offered, build it the best you can, then the ideas will be there for you to improve because you will have mastered the art of saddle making. You have to build a few before you can build the "State of the Art" newest design. These are just my observations I am always trying to learn from someone who knows more than I do about this profession but beware of somone that has a idea that is to good to be true without having mastered the basics (American-Flex).

Rick Jorgenson

[daviD A Morris]

How much flex are we talking about in a rawhide covered tree ( or a carbon fibre tree) ? Fractions of an inch in any direction, so why bother about flex ? And what loads are we talking about to create this flex in a rigid saddle tree? Chevy trucks on horse back? I might have got it wrong? Enlighten me!

Yeh,

good question. just how flexible is ideal for a working saddle. someone, one day might do an in-depth study into it. I expect the answer would be somewhere between more flexible than a heavily fibreglassed tree and less flexible than those trees made from sheets of plastic. There is an engineering firm in my town that has a load testing machine that could test the modulas of elasticity of tree for me, but it would cost money and also would need to make some kind of jig to hold the tree.

Science aside: notice the difference in the "life" in a rawide covered tree than a fibreglass tree, just by dropping it onto your bench from a few inches above. I've got no better word for it than "life" in the tree. That characteristic is probably just elasticity. The fibreglass covered trees just go "CLUNK" as they hit the bench. and the more glass that has been used to cover them the "deader" the "clunk"!

However I should qualify this by saying that there is a great variety amoung fibreglass covered trees. The ones I'm talking about are glass cloth and polyester resin. Jon Watsabaugh who is a contributor to this forum makes trees covered in epoxy and glass. From what I have seen, they would be the best glass covered trees you'll find. I have not had the pleasure yet of actualy seeing one in real life and can't wait for the experience.

I make rawhide covered trees, and also fibreglass covered trees, and have made saddles on carbon fibre covered trees. I still prefer the "life" in the rawhide covered trees.

[Hidemechanic]

Mort, everybody responding pretty much at one point or another has said most of what I have been thinking here except that it has taken three pages to say it and resay it.

The first thing that bothered me was you appear to have assumed that driving a truck over a tree was equivalant to "Strength Testing". It has nothing to do with the strength of a saddle. That was a gimmick that was used by Ralide years ago that may have givin the impression to some that that was a standard of testing. It's far from it and absurd to believe it is.

Secondly, you mentioned that 'sales person in you', your hole approach to this discussion has sounded to me like the point of view of a salesman.

That is, you obviously have done a lot of reading up and talking to people,and though you have a lot of ideas you have no opinion as yet because you have no experience in most of what you are suggesting. They are good ideas and you have a good start on a philosophy, but your 'passion' seems to have little to do with building trees or saddles.

I think you need to stop talking about it and get in the shop and start working out the details in practical application and bring the results back to us or whomever for evaluation. There are some engineers on this site that can offer suggestions and experience to help you fine tune things or tell you what their hurdles were.

Serro Gordo some years back was building carbon fiber trees but I think if was not cost effective at the time and he quit. I never got a chance to build on one though I was interested. Maybe you can hunt him down and talk to him about his experiences.

I'm sorry, but talking for the sake of talking without any practical experamentation gives me a head ache.

I wish you luck in your persutes though, let us know how you progress.

GH

[jonwatsabaugh]

Mort,

Like GH stated, there's nothing like experience. However, if you are really interested in learning how to make trees, there is no better place to start than to secure some time with a good tree maker and learn the basics of hand made trees. Even if down the road you wanted to make trees from duplicator parts, learning the handmade process I believe is vital. This would give you the basis you need to start, a very grounded knowledge of the craft, and the education would provide information you need to test the viability of your ideas. If we can at all help direct you Mort, we sure will!

David,

This might shock many of you here who have read some of my earlier posts, but I will concede and agree with you David, that rawhide does put much more "life" in the tree. Even though I like my epoxy/glassed trees, there are certain qualities and features you just don't get with fiberglass encased trees. At present, I still cover more trees with rawhide than I do fiberglass. I've seen rawhide and fiberglass trees both though, that I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for. Believe me, there are no short cuts to either process... they both require an aquired skill and much time.

Jon