Adler 467 For Venator

[gottaknow]

Received the Adler 467 from Venator today and started my trouble shooting process. I can see why it's breaking thread. The hook timing is advanced too far and there is a bind in the needle bar assembly that causes the entire unit to deflect away from the hook. This not only messes up the timing, but also causes the thread to abrade on the left side of the feed dog hole.

This machine is also extremely dry. All of the oil wicks are bone dry. I've soaked everything in the mean time. There was plenty of oil in the reservoir, and when I get it sewing I'll trouble shoot the oil problem. The machine itself is in good shape overall. I see no reason why it won't sew good after I resolve the binding issue and the oil.

My one comment about the Adler machines and I guess Pfaff as well is they use more moving parts to accomplish the same thing that other manufacturers do with less. Just more stuff to take apart I guess. I've attached a few pictures and will post more as I proceed.

Regards, Eric

[amuckart]

Thank you very much for sharing this.

[venator]

Thank you very much for all of this. Please ensure you let us know where you think the problems originated, myself or before I recieved it. I have no issues owning up to any mistakes I've made, I hope everyone else involved feels the same.

[Constabulary]

My one comment about the Adler machines and I guess Pfaff as well is they use more moving parts to accomplish the same thing that other manufacturers do with less. Just more stuff to take apart I guess. I've attached a few pictures and will post more as I proceed.

Thats exactly what I discovered whern I was working on a Pfaff 145. Much much more parts a (extra roller for the footlifter f.i.). Thats why I like the much simpler Singer 111w and older Duerkopp (not Duerkopp-Adler) 239 and 241 machines so much - they are much easier to work with.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Leather worker.net shows up big again, nice to see people eager to help each other out.

[TZBrown]

Thank you very much for sharing this.

I also am looking forward to the diagnosis

Love your pictures, great depth of field for close ups

[gottaknow]

Before I adjusted the timing and other more common settings, I wanted to get rid of the bind that was moving the needle bar sideways right before loop taking time. I traced it through the seemingly miles of connecting rods and linkages in this machine. (kidding, kinda). It was primarily two things. I had suspected the needle bar connecting link because I noticed screwdriver marks on it. One of the things I do when I don't know the history of a machine is to follow the trail of worn screws and marks like I found on the connecting arm. This gives me a place to start as far those that may have come before me.

I loosened the two clamp screws (shown in the picture) and gently tapped it with a plastic mallet. Connecting arms on bearings have a sweet spot where the run the best. Most of the time, the machine will actually set itself, which it did. I then simply tightened the clamp screws.

There was still a bind in the take up arm which I could actually see. The threaded bolt was tightened all the way instead of just being snugged up to center the arm. The locknut prevents the bolt from getting out of adjustment. Cranking it all the way down was incorrect. I loosened the locknut, backed off the bolt a bit and then locked it in place with the nut. A simple fix.

These two things eliminated the binding to my satisfaction. As the oil works its way around, the machine should loosen more. The specific bind I felt yesterday is gone. What I'm still feeling is a general lack of oil and should remedy itself. More to follow.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

After taking care of the binding issue, I began to look at the common settings. I always start by checking the thread paths. It doesn't matter how well you can time and set a machine if you've got one or more components compromising your thread. I always check everywhere the thread runs.

In this case, I knew from the video I had watched on this machine that something was shredding the thread. It was easy to identify two main things. The hook timing and setting to the needle as was shown in a previous photo, and today I discovered the bottom edge of the feed dog hole was like a razor in places. It's simple to test as the picture I've attached shows. I placed the feed dogs in the vice and "flossed" the hole with some thread. You can see the results with just a few passes of the thread. The other picture shows my remedy using emery cord. I was able to smooth the hole with good results and further testing left my thread intact.

On lockstitch machines, the needle thread moves back and forth about 60 times for each stitch formed. These movements are very small, but a sharp edge can really tear up your thread.

I reset the hook timing as the picture shows. I used a 2mm needle bar rise and retarded the hook quite a bit. I can now turn the machine over by hand and I'm comfortable with the timing. I do suspect that the hook in this machine is not an original Adler hook. I have some reasons to believe that, but I need to spend more time with it. The next step is to put the head in one of my tables and put some power to it. That will allow me to fine tune the settings and take care of the oil issue.

Regards, Eric

[billybopp]

When I used to fix mainframe computers for a living, we had a name for following the worn screws, marks, cleared dust and such. But it's mixed company on here, so I won't repeat it. It is a great way to find some of a machine's history, tho.

Bill

[TinkerTailor]

Do you think the gunk and oil issues caused the mistime? Also, could the wrong oil in the past clog the oil passages?

[gottaknow]

Hey Tinker,

The lack of oil doesn't have anything to do with the timing issues or the other things that have been out of adjustment. The binding and poor hook timing was done by someone who doesn't have the experience to do it correctly. I had to loosen the hook saddle and move it closer to the needle. That also involved setting the guard on the hook. I have a feeling this hook has been replaced by a generic one.

I have seen people use the wrong oil in machines with wicks like this Adler. Even if it were the wrong oil, it would still wick and lubricate. Near as I can tell, the bottom of the machine has been getting oil, the top has not. Once I get it in a table with a motor, I'll figure out what's going on. On a machine used for home sewing leather at a slow speed, the lack of oil simply makes the machine run a little tight. If it were inline in my factory, it would seize up in a day.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

Thank you Eric for posting these detailed problem solving steps and photos. I'm a little excited that my suspected presser foot roughness was part of the problem, but the whole set of problems was clearly much more complex than could have been debugged remotely. I'm glad you got your hands on the machine to inspect and fix it. Your posts are very educational indeed and I very much appreciate your efforts in documenting the process.

[gottaknow]

Aside from the hook timing and the sharp feed dog hole, the latch opener is a bit tight with this size thread. When you decide to move up a size in thread, be sure to always check this adjustment. What's working with T135 may not be ok with T207. Even though this was just pinching a bit, the thread needs a clear path.

Regards, Eric

[gt2ride]

Eric

Please tell me more about the latch opener adj. What should I be looking for.

thank you

gt2ride

[gottaknow]

Hey gt2ride, The latch opener adjustment is one of the most overlooked and important settings on a verticle hook machine. It's function is to hold the bobbin basket open just wide enough to create a clear path for the thread between the tab on the basket, and the back of the "notch" in the throat plate. It's easy to check, and easy to set. Get a couple ply of whatever you're sewing on and sew down a bit on the right edge. That will allow you to slide the cover open, turn the machine over by hand and watch your latch opener. Turn the handwheel slowly in the operating direction and watch the needle thread. After the hook picks it up, it will carry it over the top of the basket where your bobbin is. The latch opener should contact the basket and rotate it slightly ccw, allowing the thread to cleaning pass. If not, loosen the screw and adjust it just enough for the thread to clear. If you have it open too much, you'll hit the front side of the throat plate notch with the tab on the basket. An easy check when finished is to turn it until it's moved the basket as far as it will go ccw, then push the basket by hand ccw. There should be a slight gap. I've attached a pic below so you can see it.

Regards, Eric

[TZBrown]

Hook Timing needs to be done before latch opener timing, is that correct?

[gottaknow]

The order of things I progress through are as follows, I seldom if ever skip a step, especially on a machine I don't know the history of.

1) Top and bottom shafts properly timed.

2) Verify needle class, new needle.

3) Needle bar height.

4) Hook timing

5) Latch opening

6) Feed dog height

7) Feed pressure

8) Bobbin tension

9) Needle tension

10) Final sew off

Along the way, all the primary components get an inspection. Polish, replacing, etc.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

Thank you again so much Eric, this really is appreciated.

As I said, I'm happy to provide you with a free custom shirt for your efforts on my behalf, since it's what my company does it's the least I can offer.

[brmax]

Thanks Eric, Its always an interesting read with your findings.

Striking oil in your next segments! Im all eyes n ears as slow machine operations in the norm here.

Appreciate the tips and Good day there

[gottaknow]

I like going through machines in the forum and hopefully take some of the mystery out of industrial machines. It can be really discouraging and even the cause of some leaving the enjoyment of leather work because of a machine issue. That, and the costs associated with having them adjusted and repaired. I've always believed that most folks can learn their machines well enough to make basic adjustments and troubleshoot problems, not detracting from the hobby or even a small business. Nothing worse than getting half way through a project and having something come up. As I've said before, I make a really good living as a head mechanic in a factory. My only compensation is hoping that I might help some folks solve problems.

A wise man (dad) once told me that if you want to learn something, find someone who does it better and then pay attention. I was so impressed when I first joined the site the level of knowledge that was here and the willingness to help. I've been able to build my leather working skills by reading and practicing. Sewing machines are no different.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

I put the 467 in a table today and did some initial test sewing. The table I had was for a consew 327 double needle with an old 70's Amco clutch motor, 220 3ph., 3400 rpm or some such nonsense. Needless to say, there were some control issues, but those old motors are work horses. The motor had no problems with 16 oz. of dyed veg tan, but for proper testing, I'll probably throw a speed reducer on it.

The thread breaking issue is resolved. I was using the provided T210 thread for the needle and bobbin, but I believe the bobbin thread should be a smaller size. I've got some T138 I'll try. It handled the T210, but I'm not happy with how tight I had to run the top tension. That is a big benefit of using lighter thread in the bobbin. You can reduce the top tension which makes for an overall better sewing experience. I've attached some pics showing various tensions as I adjusted.

I still have a very dry top end of this machine, and that will be next. Oh, as for the missing parts the tech mentioned, the only thing I've found so far is the bobbin winder tension assembly is gone except for the post. Easy enough to make a new one. I used the bobbin winder that was mounted to my stand.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

I mentioned earlier I suspect this machine has a generic replacement hook in it. I'm sure of it now. There is a little known feature of the bobbin basket that can drive a person nuts if you don't look for it. It's common with generic hooks. For that reason, I always try and use original replacement hooks in verticle hook machines. I've seen this issue with Singer, Consew, Brother, Mitsubishi, Juki and several others. Just before the needle thread is pulled up and the stitch set, the lip that sits in the race of the hook has a cast-off point. The makers of generic hooks don't seem to think it's important where that lip starts and stops. I had to remove some material from the basket to allow the needle thread to cleanly release from the hook. Not doing so required more needle tension, and even at that it was inconsistent. I've attached some pics to try and show this. This is extremely important when using heavy thread. Lighter thread may be more forgiving, but the T210 I'm using was hanging up right before the stitch was set.

The other pic just shows one of my work benches. It also shows that I threaded the machine wrong before I put it in the table. (Yes even I do stuff like that!) I use old sewing stands covered with 18 gauge sheet metal and trimmed with aluminum. Make a great bench that is height adjustable. One of these days I take some pics of my shop in the factory. I continue to find ways to improve it. I hope you are all enjoying this process as much as I am, don't hesitate to ask questions if you have them.

Regards, Eric

Edited April 27, 2015 by gottaknow

[Hockeymender]

Eric,

Thanks so much for taking the time to post a "step by step" narrative of your dealings with this machine. I am always learning something. I would really like to see your shop at the factory, that I'm sure is a very interesting place. Again, thanks for sharing your expertise with us!

[Uwe]

Most mortals would have looked at your adjusted stitch sample and said "my work is done here." Thanks for going the extra mile. I just went to inspect the cast-off point on my Consew 225 basket now that I know what it's supposed to do, lol. It's a little sad that apparently nobody has written a comprehensive "this is how it works and this is why this detail or adjustment is important" treatise on this decades-old technology. If there is such a thing, I'd love to know about it. Most service manuals just say stuff like "loosen these screws and align these marks", but they generally don't say exactly why or how things are connected beyond the obvious. I'm glad you're chipping away at the tradition of revenue-protecting secrecy amongst many sewing machine techs and share your expertise with us.

[gottaknow]

Thanks for the kind words Uwe. To be honest with you, the average mechanic in a repair shop would never get into the detail that I do. The main reason is that in a repair shop, you can have a guy that's pretty good with timing, tension, and general repairs. They can work on a few machines during their day, making sure the machine will sew as fast as the guy or gal who's going to be using it. In most cases, that's not very fast.

However, in a factory where the operators are paid by how fast they sew, their machines need to be set near perfect. We have operators sewing as fast as they can, 40 hours a week. I have to make sure that each machine is capable of doing that. Without getting into the depth and detail that I do, I would be considered a poor mechanic. That's about it in a nutshell. I know mechanics that have worked in a sales and repair shop for as long as I've worked in factories. Their jobs and mine are very different. We can both be successful, but in different ways.

I do have issue with folks that call themselves mechanics and then charge a fee for things they can't figure out. People spend good money on their machines. To have a tech say it can't be fixed, then write you a bill just irks me to no end. Especially in the case of this 467. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox.

Regards, Eric