Adler 467 For Venator

[gottaknow]

I put the 467 in a table today and did some initial test sewing. The table I had was for a consew 327 double needle with an old 70's Amco clutch motor, 220 3ph., 3400 rpm or some such nonsense. Needless to say, there were some control issues, but those old motors are work horses. The motor had no problems with 16 oz. of dyed veg tan, but for proper testing, I'll probably throw a speed reducer on it.

The thread breaking issue is resolved. I was using the provided T210 thread for the needle and bobbin, but I believe the bobbin thread should be a smaller size. I've got some T138 I'll try. It handled the T210, but I'm not happy with how tight I had to run the top tension. That is a big benefit of using lighter thread in the bobbin. You can reduce the top tension which makes for an overall better sewing experience. I've attached some pics showing various tensions as I adjusted.

I still have a very dry top end of this machine, and that will be next. Oh, as for the missing parts the tech mentioned, the only thing I've found so far is the bobbin winder tension assembly is gone except for the post. Easy enough to make a new one. I used the bobbin winder that was mounted to my stand.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

I mentioned earlier I suspect this machine has a generic replacement hook in it. I'm sure of it now. There is a little known feature of the bobbin basket that can drive a person nuts if you don't look for it. It's common with generic hooks. For that reason, I always try and use original replacement hooks in verticle hook machines. I've seen this issue with Singer, Consew, Brother, Mitsubishi, Juki and several others. Just before the needle thread is pulled up and the stitch set, the lip that sits in the race of the hook has a cast-off point. The makers of generic hooks don't seem to think it's important where that lip starts and stops. I had to remove some material from the basket to allow the needle thread to cleanly release from the hook. Not doing so required more needle tension, and even at that it was inconsistent. I've attached some pics to try and show this. This is extremely important when using heavy thread. Lighter thread may be more forgiving, but the T210 I'm using was hanging up right before the stitch was set.

The other pic just shows one of my work benches. It also shows that I threaded the machine wrong before I put it in the table. (Yes even I do stuff like that!) I use old sewing stands covered with 18 gauge sheet metal and trimmed with aluminum. Make a great bench that is height adjustable. One of these days I take some pics of my shop in the factory. I continue to find ways to improve it. I hope you are all enjoying this process as much as I am, don't hesitate to ask questions if you have them.

Regards, Eric

Edited April 27, 2015 by gottaknow

[Hockeymender]

Eric,

Thanks so much for taking the time to post a "step by step" narrative of your dealings with this machine. I am always learning something. I would really like to see your shop at the factory, that I'm sure is a very interesting place. Again, thanks for sharing your expertise with us!

[Uwe]

Most mortals would have looked at your adjusted stitch sample and said "my work is done here." Thanks for going the extra mile. I just went to inspect the cast-off point on my Consew 225 basket now that I know what it's supposed to do, lol. It's a little sad that apparently nobody has written a comprehensive "this is how it works and this is why this detail or adjustment is important" treatise on this decades-old technology. If there is such a thing, I'd love to know about it. Most service manuals just say stuff like "loosen these screws and align these marks", but they generally don't say exactly why or how things are connected beyond the obvious. I'm glad you're chipping away at the tradition of revenue-protecting secrecy amongst many sewing machine techs and share your expertise with us.

[gottaknow]

Thanks for the kind words Uwe. To be honest with you, the average mechanic in a repair shop would never get into the detail that I do. The main reason is that in a repair shop, you can have a guy that's pretty good with timing, tension, and general repairs. They can work on a few machines during their day, making sure the machine will sew as fast as the guy or gal who's going to be using it. In most cases, that's not very fast.

However, in a factory where the operators are paid by how fast they sew, their machines need to be set near perfect. We have operators sewing as fast as they can, 40 hours a week. I have to make sure that each machine is capable of doing that. Without getting into the depth and detail that I do, I would be considered a poor mechanic. That's about it in a nutshell. I know mechanics that have worked in a sales and repair shop for as long as I've worked in factories. Their jobs and mine are very different. We can both be successful, but in different ways.

I do have issue with folks that call themselves mechanics and then charge a fee for things they can't figure out. People spend good money on their machines. To have a tech say it can't be fixed, then write you a bill just irks me to no end. Especially in the case of this 467. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

In defense of the first fellow to work on my machine (Derrick at Massey's sewing) he turned it back over to me after a few hours and told me he couldn't fix it, he also didn't charge me so I'm fine with that. While I wasn't thrilled he couldn't fix it I'm fine with a man who knows his limits and didn't charge me to discover them.

Central Sewing on the other hand told me to put $500 down so they could diagnose my machine and see if they could fix it or not. Either way i lose the $500 and perhaps get a machine back that still doesn't work. I was less than thrilled with them.

[gottaknow]

I'm getting happier with the sewing, working on tracking down the lack of oil flow....stay tuned.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

Oh I'm tuned. . .

[gottaknow]

I spent a good amount of time understanding the oil system on this machine. It uses a combination of the following:

1. Oil reservoir splash- this is a closed compartment with a supply of oil. The bottom shaft as it rotates throws or "splashes" oil into strategic locations that contains wicks, transporting the oil to key locations. This is the ideal system for any sewing machine because it's not dependent on a pump. It provides the most complete and dependable system in my opinion. Union Special Corp. mastered the design of this in many of their chainstitch machines as well as their workhorse overlock machines. Machines with reliable lubrication live a long life. They do require mineral oil with an anti-foaming agent as the splash system is quite violent. Without the anti-foaming agent, you have a bunch of bubbles that don't flow very well. Ironic that many oil pumps depend on oil flowing through them to keep them lubricated and funtioning. An oil pump that runs dry will eventually fail.

2. Oil pump- oil pumps come in many forms. I know there is an oil pump in the 467. I believe that it's fed via a tube in the splash reservoir. That pump pushes the oil to a series of small tubes, some with wicks, some without. This oil pump supplies oil to the top shaft including the needle bar, presser bar, and all the associated moving parts. Very critical.

3. Gravity- this is common on older machines with an oil reservoir in the top part of the machine. Singer perfected this system in their original 111 series. It worked good for the top shaft, and the bottom shaft depended on oil holes that had to be manually oiled.

The 467 has a sight glass on the front of the machine that indicates oil flowing to the top shaft and it's components. Many manufacturers use a sight glass so that you can make sure your top shaft is being lubricated. I stated earlier in this thread that the top shaft of this machine was bone dry. It's been dry for a very long time. I also posted a picture of a crank shaft that had some punch marks on it. I now believe the top shaft on this machine froze up at some point in its history and someone got it turning again by applying some local oil and hitting the top of the crank. The needle bar was jumping sideways when I first started looking at the timing. I hand oiled the crank and readjusted it's position. The movement is minimal now and I was able to get the machine sewing in pretty short order. The original hook was replaced at some point, probably from lack of oil. The generic hook had some issues, but I resolved that as I went over earlier in the thread.

There are some broken components in the oil system. The sight glass has an entire corner missing. It just happens to be where the tube from the oil pump enters that verifies oil flow to the top shaft. It was likely broken by a misplaced screwdriver. It's tucked a bit out of sight where it would be easy to damage.

I don't know at this point if the oil pump works. There are other indication that it doesn't. There's also a leaky seal on the right side of the bottom shaft where it goes through the main oil reservoir. This has caused the timing belt to soaked in oil. Rubber timing belts don't like oil. There's enough oil on this belt and the splines really aren't that deep (compared to say, a Singer 211). It's conceivable that the shaft timing could jump. I put some pressure on it, but it stayed in place. I've got pictures to show all the above, but it's late and I'll edit and add them to the thread this weekend. I did sew some nice heavy nylon webbing with no issues.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

Thanks for the details on the lubrication issue. I'm on vacation, so I spent way too much time reading up on the lubrication system of the 467. The service manual for the Adler 467 (available in English or German) explains how the oil lubrication is supposed to work/flow on pages 12/13. It sounds as if that pump inside the machine is there to suck the excess oil from the head back to the main sump and to the hook case. Apparently the oil is delivered to the head by way of spiral grooves on a "pump" shaft and a brass tube. The oil should be dripping from the brass tube (3) in the head when the machine is operating. The little viewing window (K) should show oil "bubbles" during operation. Its seems if the head is bone dry, there is either no oil dripping from the brass tube, or the oil is not hitting the wick when it's dripping from the brass tube. The manual talks about bending the brass tube "just so" to make it drip onto the wick and into the hole below in the return tube. I've not seen the 467 in person and was wondering if you mind confirming if that brass tube is indeed visible and dripping oil as indicated in the attached diagram from the manual. The diagram has two version of the head dripping chamber. Could you let us know which one is on Venator's machine?