Treadle - Singer 45K, 133K And Other?

[Europeanleather]

Two machines I'm checking out is the singer 45k and the heavier duty singer 133k. I am looking for something that is like a luberto cub (hard to find) or tippman boss (hear it isn't too great). A sewing machine that is a manual or treadle type.

Will a singer 45k treadle be able to handle up to 6mm of leather as thing as 2 pieces of thin canvas and on the odd occasion 10-12mm of leather?

[Harrybodger]

I do not have a 45K but I do have a 133k and I have posted two films on Youtube to show its capability......just google Harry Rogers.....my 133k has a walking foot and can take around 10mm of leather under its foot and seems to chomp through it effortlessly. I also use it with lighter threads for sewing upholstery leather, like around the top of tote bags. One of my friends has a 45k and I know he can make up scythe covers from veg tan so its pretty tough, but I do not know much about its capability. Some people attach handles to their 133k machines to turn slowly. I have used a servo motor with reducing pulleys. I hope that helps. Harry

[Constabulary]

I have a 133K3 and once worked with a 45K1 (both drop feed). My 133K3 has about 14m foot lift and the 45k 12mm (as far as I remember the 45K). But they are both using the same foot lift lever so it´s just a question of how they are set up. The 45K has a bit more punch because it has a much much heavier balance wheel. Both are nice to work with.

LW member JIMI from Spain has a bunch of 45K´s and all have a treadle if I´m right. I´m sure he will jump in here when he is reading the 45K topic

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Hey Harry - seems you found the way to the LW forum.

We were in touch a couple of times because of the 133K. You have sent the 132K manual and I have returned the 133K6 manual a bit later...

[Harrybodger]

Hello Constabulary great to see you here, and thanks for sharing your wonderful knowledge. Harry

[hyttogpine]

Hallo Europanleather

I myself have eyes on a Singer 45K25. Because of it has reverse.

I'm the newcomer, so I have to watch me steeps. But one of Harry Rogrs his videos, if I remember right, he was a litle bit sorry for the lack of reverse, on his babytank 133K. Same as Constanbulary

I like the 133K very much - nice large bobbing and rotary hook. Too bad it has no reverse but for the thick webbing It will work (hopefully)

No matter how much you earn, show sobriety when paying. It's effect the next who wish a sewing machine. By me, there is a seller (criminal but legal price demand) on 1.125 euro, at an 45K25.

Ok, it seems that he wash it first.

[Harrybodger]

Hi Yes no reverse on the 133k which is a shame, especially if sewing something where one cannot turn it around to stitch the other way, such as the top of a bag......its a little but important point in deciding which machine to go for.

[Constabulary]

Don´t know how much you want to spend and where you are located but how about a BUSMC / Pearson #6

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pearson-No-6-Harness-Leather-Industrial-Sewing-Machine-British-United-Shoe-Compa-/281576584968?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item418f45b708

Not cheap but you can use the head even w/o the treadle just for the case you are travelling.

Don´t what exactly you want to sew but maybe a Junker & Ruh SD28 could be an option

[jimi]

Hi There, what are you planning on sewing?? i think you are looking for something like a cowboy CB-4500. or like constabulary said, a pearson which is similar to a luberto. (not the smaller classic) or an adler 105 with needle feed. the 45k on a treadle will sew what goes under the foot (about 12mm) but it has no needle feed and will mark your leather underneath. check out this video.

[Europeanleather]

Canvas duffle bags, leather wallets and the occasional leather bags are what I'm stitching, mostly chrome tan leathers or canvas materials. Is there a way to prevent the 45k from scratching the underside of the leather?

Im interested in vintage manual machines because they seem less complicated to use, the singer 29k is perfect with its rotating feature but the needle and bobbin are too small. Are there any heavier duty singer 29k alternatives?

Junker and run machine looks like it is too heavy duty for what I'm doing. For shoes it looks perfect though.

[jimi]

Here are a couple of options. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=61619&page=3

the other option is to use a worn feed dog and rub out the marks.I think chrome tan marks less than veg tan. for sewing wallets i reckon a walking foot machine would be better. i have done a few wallets using a pfaff 335 and they worked out very well. you can also do binding on them, so that could be a good option for the canvas bag??, but dont expect it to take 12mm thick leather!

[Constabulary]

There are some members who like treadle machines - I personally don`t though I like vintage machines very much. A well functional servo motor + speed reducer is the best option I would say (my opinion).

I would not recommend a Singer 29K or any other cobbler machine if you want to produce quality standard items. These were designed for very slow sewing and the bobbins do not have much capacity. F.i. the bobbin of most 29K is just 16mm in diameter. Check this post - I have posted a picture of different bobbins for comparison: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=56667&p=385045

So producing a canvas Duffel Bag may take for ever and you have to change the bobbin every few minutes. And the thicker the thread is the less thread is on the bobbin. Anything thicker than 92 or 138 thread makes no sense for cobbler machines I would say. Some even say 69 size thread is the best but I can run 138 thread in my 29K71. Anyway - a cobbler machine is not recommend for producing quality goods.

A worn feed dog may help to prevent leather markings but can cause inconsistent stitchings as well. I had this with my 133K3 machine. Best choice probably is a needle feed or walking foot (triple feed) machine.

[Europeanleather]

How well does a roller foot sewing machine do with chrome and veg?

Is there any type of machine that will not mark up the backside because of the feed dog.

Is the a triple feed better than a needle feed when it comes to leather?

[SantaFeMarie]

Hi Yes no reverse on the 133k which is a shame, especially if sewing something where one cannot turn it around to stitch the other way, such as the top of a bag......its a little but important point in deciding which machine to go for.

So, out of curiosity: what does one do if one's machine does not have reverse?

[Harrybodger]

In reply to European leather I like triple feed, I have this on my Juki DNU1541, and I have ground off most of the teeth on one of my Juki feet so as not to mark veg tan...the needle drags the leather through very well.....I like the Juki, not so much power an on my 133k but a very versatile machine and a pretty good all rounder. One trick I sometimes use is to put a sheet on paper on top of the veg tan to reduce any scope for marking the leather.

In reply to SanteFeMarie - I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts, but I just manage by tying thread ends and singe with a lighter (bonded nylon) when I cannot turn the work around.

[jimi]

Hi, yes i agree with harry that triple feed is better for NOT marking leather, as the needle does the feeding along with the foot and feed dog, which is normally smooth. and for stitching reverse with no reverse option.. this is probably the most logical way to do it...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kooE4I1xU9I

[Harrybodger]

I will try that jimi its seems mechanically dubious, but a very logical approach....and if it works thats good enough - thanks very much! Harry

[Darren Brosowski]

The Singer 45k25 does not have reverse.

As much as I love the old machines I have to sell the GA5-1R due to parts and availability. It has reverse and roller feet are available.

The 45k and GA5 can be made into a hand crank by drilling and tapping a hole to fit a handle on the balance wheel to make them portable. It is something I offer as a standard product.

[Darren Brosowski]

Amazingly the 45k and similar machines have been in use for leatherwork for over a century and yet all of a sudden in the last few ears they are not suitable for sewing leather?

There is a technique to using the 45k and simple feed machines to get even stitches and that involves using both hands to assist the feed. I know master saddlers who use the 45k to do the bulk of their sewing and stitch length is not an issue.

The feed dog marking is mostly because people screw down the presser foot tension to compensate for the fact that they do not assist the feed correctly.

[Constabulary]

In the past you were able to get different type of feed dogs with narrower teeth depending on the sewing application. But nowadays you can be lucky when you find just 1 type. Nowadays feed dogs of the 45K flat bed most of the time have 12 or 14 teeth whereas the feed dog of the cylinder bed machines have 8 or 9 teeth but I know for the cylinder bed machines the feed dogs were available with at least 12 teeth. So when you apply the same amount of foot pressure to the feed dogs then the ones with fewer teeth will most likely leave deeper marks on the leather. Foot pressure should always bee as low as possible but high enough to feed the materials properly.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Constabulary

[jimi]

This was one of these options for the cylinder arm 45k etc... consisting of nº85531 feed dog (13 teeth),nº85532 presser foot and nº85533 needle plate. complete set nº85534 "Attachment for sewing bag handles".

Edited May 6, 2015 by jimi

[hyttogpine]

Europeanleather

Don't know if you still are interested in this machine/. And I don't know if Darren Brosowski is a big shot in here, but when he declare the lack of reverse on 45K25. It seems that he is on collision course to Singers own manual

.

Hi There, this is the only manual i have seen for this class of machine on the net.

45Kmanual.pdf

SIL10-145-151a.jpg

I my self have found a 45K25 for a couple a weeks ago, but have big problems keeping the contact with the seller (it's not a eBay item !). But today we make a date for me to come and see and try first. The machine has orginal table on orginal stand with mounted clutch motor. From pictures (in background in a corner). it seems there's a treadle base too. Looking forwards too se the equipment. And of course to bee agree off the price.

But I am going for this machine because off is reverse, Europeanleather.

[jimi]

Hi There hyttogpine, good luck with buying the machine, if you need a picture of any parts to see if they are missing then just say. i have a 45k1,45k21 and a 45ksv99, and as far as i know and have seen the 45k21,25,63 and 78 have no reverse. you can see this in the parts manual in the description. if a machine has reverse it will state it in the description of the machine. the 45ksv99 does have reverse on it. it is a screw and fixing nut to the top left of the stitch length adjuster. if the machine you are buying has reverse, then i do not think it is a 45k25.

http://dixiesewingmachine.tzo.com/MANUALS/SINGERPARTS2/45K21,%2045K25,%2045K63,%20&%2045K78.pdf

unless on the newer 45k25 machines they incorporated a reverse? if you go to this post, will see that there are no machines with reverse. on ebay uk there are two machines with reverse and both are class 45k89. also the 45k92 "flat bed and 45k93 cylinder arm have the reverse options. you can tell by the head of the stitch length adjusting screw, because it is larger and it has 3 knurled rings to it. also you can see the screw to the top left with the nut as i said before, which is for fixing the stitch length so you can go forward and reverse and not loose your stitch length position. i do not know if there are other 45s with reverse, but these ones do have reverse. maybe you should ask the seller for some clear pictures of the machine? in my opinion, if it has reverse ,then it is probably a 45k93, if it is a 45k25 then i do not think that it will have reverse?

Edited May 6, 2015 by jimi

[hyttogpine]

Hallo jimi

Now I'm began being scared of make someone wrong.

First of all, I'm not even a amateur. And my English is poor.

But referring to the document you uploaded/linked yourself, 19th.nov.2014. Is tells at page 8, "Reversing direction of feed and altering length of stitch". I have believe that 45K25 have the ability to work in reverse.

P.S. I'm reading and writing from a tablet and I'm not able to upload a picture of my coming sawing machin. (After several try in both mode: Flash 9 and basic uploader) Equipped with the handle for stitch and hopefully reverse.

Is it not possible to attach a picture from my photo album on my tablet ? or do I first have to upload my picture to a web-server and then referrer to this URL adress ?

Please correct me, but first take a look ad the manual

quote name="jimi" post="384979" timestamp="1416356514"]

45Kmanual.pdf

Jimi, I have many nights, gets thrilled by yours photos of shiny and well caretaking parts from yours machines. This is things I will like to know about. Cleaning and polish procedures.

And there will be dozen of issues you can guide me. I thanks you for helping attitude.

[jimi]

Hello hyttogpine, Mmmmmm, this manual speaks in general of the class 45k although it just says 45K (45 is the class number and 25 is the variety), and as you can see it does not say any model number of machine, just 45k. probably because there are many variations and they did not want to refer to every one of them? the most common type of machine is being reffered to here. if you see the original manual i have uploaded later, it is basically the same in the sense that it does not refer to any specific variety, just "class 45k". the newer manual (with the 45k in big letters on the front) was probably the updated one as both machines are together and both have the reverse option. before there was one booklet for the flat bed and another booklet for the cylinder arm type. it can be confusing some times?? all of these numbers and types etc..etc in the original manual there is no reverse option shown? so when i said " for this class of machine", that is meaning the class 45k in general.

(i dont know if you can upload from your tablet. but from the pc you just take the picture from the file folder not the web page. you might have to resize the picture to less pixels to upload it??). and thank you for you kind comments hyttogpine, i am glad you liked the pictures. sometimes a picture can save a whole lot of confusing words. if you want anymore pictures just let me know.

For cleaning and polishing? have you seen the post "pfaff 335 journey to the unknown" regards jimi.

http://www.1stinfantrydivision.de/images/stories/PDF_Dateien/Singer%2045K%20Instructions%20Manual%20-%20User%20Guide.pdf

http://www.1stinfantrydivision.de//images/stories/PDF_Dateien/Singer%2045K%20Descriptions%20of%20Subclasses.pdf

45Kmanual.pdf

Edited May 7, 2015 by jimi