A Bit Of A Conundrum - What Would You Do?

[BobHall]

Welcome to my rant!

A few weeks ago I was in need of some veg tan to complete a project. I normally buy my leather from W&C...everything I've gotten there was above my expectations and the folks there are friendly and helpful. Unfortunately they were shut down for maintenance and I'd have to wait several weeks to get the leather, so I asked for advice here on a good place to buy a side. Before I go further let me state that I don't blame the person who made the recommendation at all....my issue is with the vendor. I went to the recommended web site and looked through their options, opting for the higher grade, and higher priced, "Hermann Oak " side. I put the brand in quotes because quite frankly I have doubts that a well-known company like Hermann Oak would ship what I received to distributors to sell as quality veg tan.

I'll be the first to admit that I am picky. I am my own worst critic and do my best to provide a quality product to my customers, even if it means scrapping a project I've spent hours on and starting over because of a little mistake that I'm the only one who will ever notice. I would like to believe that I can expect some level of quality and integrity from the those I choose to patronize as well.

Please have a look at the photos I've attached. Am I being too harsh in thinking this looks like something that's been kicked into a corner and laying there for God only knows how long? Have you ever made an online purchase and ended up with something far less than you expected? If so, what did you do? Should I send these pictures to someone at Hermann Oak and ask them if they actually produce and sell something like this? Do I need a tropical vacation complete with all I can drink margaritas? Oh, wait, I can answer the last one.

In one picture I put a piece of leather I got at a Tandy store about 8 years ago for comparison.

I've intentionally failed to mention the vendor by name...I am waiting for a response from them before I do that.

Thanks for listening.

[JLSleather]

Yeah, that's pretty bad. I've seen some HO that was better than other HO, but ... wow. They'd get that back. And if they wanted to keep a customer (like EVER again), they'd pay the shipping to return it, too.

I like W/C myself, but I do use HO as well. HO has never sent me a piece with all of that going on. Ever.

Sadly, it's getting worse trying to mail-order anything. Especially where they have a walk-in retail. You not only have unskilled, unlearned, or un-concerned store workers, but add the fact that people walking in have likely picked through the best looking leather, and you're getting .. uhhh. .what's left. Perhaps.

Oh, and don't forget that there are people who will send you poop - and tell you they're willing to return it for a different piece. If you return it, they're okay... but likely are hoping that some of the time, someone just doesn't know better and keeps it.

The guy who recommended buying a cobra leather machine felt bad too, but I finally convinced him it wasn't his fault.

Edited July 26, 2015 by JLSleather

[smirak]

I won't begin to guess the name, but let's just say I got a pc of HO from a well known vendor that was equally as bad. I was even warned by another member here to not trust leather from this company...oh well, never again.

[MonicaJacobson]

Oh yeah, they'll probably take it back. I think sometimes when you order something online, you get whatever happens to be on top. Like JLS said, they hope you won't bother. With any company, when you take the human element out (like ordering through a website), the process becomes less personal, and they take less care. But for any online ordering I've done (I do it by phone, not through a webpage), if I've specified that I'm picky, they will include my specifications in the notes and are very accommodating. It wastes their money when they have to pay for you to return stuff.

[BobHall]

Thanks for the responses...it seems I wasn't over-reacting. Here's my take on returning it:

According to the website I won't be reimbursed for shipping.

I have to pay to return it.

They charge a 15% restocking fee.

I'm guessing that, if I was foolish enough to ask for a replacement instead of a refund, they'd charge shipping to send it to me.

Sooooo....they make money either way, and I'm the one who loses. They'll never get any more of my business. That piece of leather should never have made it to the showroom, much less sold to a customer.

[RMB Custom Leather]

Bob I would say the vendor will not charge a restocking fee in this case most of the time those are for the person who orders item after item and continues to return in without a good reason. What was their response when you contacted them about it?

[25b]

I have a feeling I know what company sent you that...ummm..."stuff".

Whenever someone comes on here asking where to buy leather and twenty people reply to buy it from that company, I always take a minute to send the original poster a PM explaining why they should NOT order from that place.

I do the same when certain people post wrong answers or bad advice too and the people I've PM'ed in those cases are grateful I steered them clear of the bad info.

Anyway, if I neglected to send you a PM (BobHall) warning you about this place, I apologize. I try to catch all the ones I see, but sometimes I miss a few.

Edited July 27, 2015 by 25b

[BobHall]

Bob I would say the vendor will not charge a restocking fee in this case most of the time those are for the person who orders item after item and continues to return in without a good reason. What was their response when you contacted them about it?

I haven't heard back. I'll update this thread when I do.

I have a feeling I know what company sent you that...ummm..."stuff".

Whenever someone comes on here asking where to buy leather and twenty people reply to buy it from that company, I always take a minute to send the original poster a PM explaining why they should NOT order from that place.

I do the same when certain people post wrong answers or bad advice too and the people I've PM'ed in those cases are grateful I steered them clear of the bad info.

Anyway, if I neglected to send you a PM (BobHall) warning you about this place, I apologize. I try to catch all the ones I see, but sometimes I miss a few.

No need to apologize, it's certainly not your fault. My frustration is as much with a marketplace in general that I felt like I could trust. I am trying to build a business and don't have the resources to stock 10 sides to choose from for a particular project (hopefully will someday, but that's down the road.) I was in a bind, trying to finish a project within the time-frame I quoted, and took a chance. I hope this is an isolated case....perhaps it's like JLS suggested in an earlier response, an unknowing and/or uncaring worker just grabbed it (off the floor, I'm convinced) and shipped it, not that that makes me feel any better about it...lol.

Edited July 27, 2015 by BobHall

[JLSleather]

I was just pointing out that there is more than one reason you could get bad leather, and more than one reason you could be given bad information. Here or anywhere.

One guy is a con man (I think they call that "marketing specialist" now, but still same thing) and will sell anything he can - not his problem. Another guy is sincere enough, but doesn't know a good piece from another. Not his / her fault, but you still get crap.

Same thing, ask a question here. You'll get a bunch of responses. Not all will be great. But even then --

one guy is a low-rent scavenger, afraid of sharing his "secrets" with his "competition" (this is for the smallest men -- those "secrets" aren't theirs, someone taught them). And one guy is actually trying to help, just didn't say it as clearly for others as it is to him (he meant well). Not his / her fault, but you still get crap.

Sooooo....they make money either way, and I'm the one who loses. They'll never get any more of my business. That piece of leather should never have made it to the showroom, much less sold to a customer.

I think you may have underestimated just how much money these people are dealing with. They are making the kind of money where if they return 1000 of em, and pay the return shipping, it's a hiccup. Not a life changing event. You're talking about HO brand leather ... so doing the math...

These people claim they're getting HO that it is 'graded' at the tannery. In other words, when they get it it's already marked "B" grade. Personally, I don't believe that for a second, but that's another issue. I would put money on them buying "tannery run" grade, meaning here's a bunch of skins of different quality, sold at lump price. Why is too long a story for here. BUT, say they DID go "B" grade.

You and I can get B grade HO for about $7.50 / ft. I say "about' because I just got an email other day about the surcharge coming down a bit and I haven't done the math on the new price (about 20¢ less per foot).

So, HO - $7.50 x 25ft = $187.50

Now, say that someone bought a rail car full of sides (even if they aren't all delivered, like a promise to buy that many over say a month time). What price would that get? $7/ft? $6/ft? Ahh. nevermind. Say they actually paid the same thing you or I would (which, I'll say it-- they don't). Then they sell it for .. uhh.. say like $9.79/ft. They probably even give you a 'fancy' story about how they're giving you the "wholesale' pricing

So, other company not HO = $9.79 x 25ft = 244.75

That's a difference of $57.00 PER SIDE. Pay a guy $10/hr to stack it, and some other guy $10/hr to wrap it and put a shipping label on it. Plus lights and heat and property tax on where they store it.. blabblah... they STILL making $50/side.

So if they take a return, and "eat" $20 shipping, and DON"T charge a restocking fee, they still MAKING $30 on that hide (and they still have it to sell to someone else who won't return it). Now, mulitply that by THOUSANDS of hides per month ....

Right back in post two ...

[JLSleather]

In the end, a fella almost gotta know what a retailer can 'get away with'. Some of 'em will get away with whatever they can. Meaning whatever you don't know about.

We've all seen web sites who say "no returns". I probably wouldn't deal with that person to begin with. But if I order something, and I get something else, I WILL return it. Anybody who doesn't think so should maybe talk to their credit card issuer. I'll attempt to be polite about it. But make an issue of it, I'd just call my credit card company. They will require the return of the item(s) I wasn't satisfied with, but they WILL cancel the charge.

And another guy says if you don't buy extra shipping insurance, then they won't be responsible for it if your package is lost or damaged. BULL. It is the seller's responsibility to get you what you ordered, in the condition you ordered it. If the package goes missing, you never get it, they can't LEGALLY say 'well, i sent it so not my problem". They are required to provide either the purchase or the money. I lack the time or patience to look up the contract law, but let me NOT get what I ordered, and then you tell me "well, i sent it so that's that", and we'll see what happens to you...

I could go on (really). But if you like HO, then the best bet is buy it from HO. Cut out any middle man.

I quit that a good while back, due to atmosphere. Basically, if I buy 20 sides, then i have to control the humidity at least somewhat. But the central air is dry enough in there, that unless I'm going to use up about half that leather pretty quick, then I maybe should wall off a section of the shop where I can keep it a bit more humid to store the leather (which, I don't want to do).

Next best thing.. get a few buddies who want 5 sides apiece and share an order. If you got other leather people in your area, maybe ship it to one guy, then on Saturday everybody show up and settle up.

I talked (and talked) with one company outta MO just TOO many times. I returned hides. I complained. I said "send me the hide you would send me like if you were showing me how much you care to keep my business". I returned more. It wasn't ALL bad leather , or I wouldn't have ordered ever! But more and more and soon I was wondering just how much time I was spending on the phone about returns -- and who needs that. So, I called a while back... like one more time. I was running a bit low on 7/8, and just wanted one hide. I called. They called back. They called back again. I called back to confirm. All over ONE side of leather. Then they sent me the wrong leather. So, there I am.. running out of 7/8 because I just killed a WEEK .... so in the end I just told 'em I'm returning it, and don't bother sending another one. If you do this once or twice, it happens. Ten times... ridiculous and I should have ended it long ago. My mistake, but if you send this type, then expect to lose some business.