What Thread Size Is About 1Mm In Diameter And Can A 441 Clone Sew With It?

[DrmCa]

From what I could find on the web, it must be slightly over size 400, but I am not sure which size exactly. 415?

Or is it actually a 0.9mm thread in size 400? It is hard to measure correctly as the caliper would compress it.

Would that be a proper thread for the holsters?

And the machine part of the question: the specifications for Juki 441 say it takes up to size 28 needle.

Do the clones take size 28?

I looked at Tecksew 5100 and it says size 27. Is it a 441 clone and will size 27 needle work with 415 thread?

Picture is of the thread I am talking about. It is 3 strand non-bonded nylon sold for saddle and harness repair.

Edited August 21, 2015 by DrmCa

[dbusarow]

1mm = 0.0393"

554 thread is "only" 0.0326" and takes a #30 needle.

See chart here.

I don't think a 441 can handle that.

Dan

[JLSleather]

And WHY would it need to? Thread is far stronger than many people around here seem to think. A LOT of holsters are sewn with either 207 or 277 thread (or a combination of both).

Edited August 22, 2015 by JLSleather

[Wizcrafts]

It takes a needle and awl machine to properly tension #554 thread, or its equivalent 8 cord linen thread. A Campbell Randall, or Union Lockstitch machine can do it. Ditto for a Landis outsole stitcher (Landis F, G, etc).

FYI: I have sewn with #554 on a Union Lockstitch machine. It was a long time ago and I used my largest needle and awl combination:

[mlapaglia]

I do all my holsters and belts with 277. NEVER had a thread break on any of them. I use a 25 LR needle.

[25b]

I use 207 for belts and collars...I am sure it would work well for holsters too. It is like rope compared to the V69 and V92 I use to make my military tactical gear.

[Art]

The thread I use in my Landis 12s is in the 500s somewhere and is very close to 1 mm. Believe me, it is rope compared to the V-346 I run in my 441. I've seen Cyclones run that stuff all day long, but I don't even have a desire to put it in my 441s.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

Basically, sewing with 1mm diameter thread (top and bottom) requires a combination of things to be true, as shown below.

1. The machine must accept a large enough diameter, leather point needle to pass the thread. This is about a #30 (closed eye) needle for #554 thread.
2. The shuttle mechanism (driver, race, shuttle/bobbin case) must have enough clearance for the top thread to go around the bobbin and its case, and out, without binding.
3. The top tensioning and take-up components must be capable of exerting enough force and stroke to pull the 2mm+ (2 x 1mm) knots up inside the leather. Because such thick thread doesn't fold sharply, the total being pulled is more likely about 2.5mm.
4. The take-up lever and associated cranks must be rugged enough to withstand this force.
5. The presser foot pressure spring must be strong enough to hold down a stack of leather as the huge needle and thread ascend on the upstroke.
6. The bobbin must be fairly huge to hold enough thread to sew your project.
7. The motor will need to be very powerful and pulley'd way down and a 3:1 speed reducer will be required to punch through stacks of heavy leather with this large thread.
8. The entire machine, including its shafts, bearings, cranks, screws and frame must be built with this type of heavy use in mind.

The only sewing machines I am familiar with that meet all these criteria are Randall Lockstitch, Campbell Lockstitch and Union Lockstitch needle and awl machines. It may be that some of the Landis needle and awl harness machines can also handle #554 or equivalent thread. Or, a heavy duty shoe sole machine would do the job.

[dbusarow]

The top tensioning and take-up components must be capable of exerting enough force and stroke to pull the 2mm+ (2 x 1mm) knots up inside the leather. Because such thick thread doesn't fold sharply, the total being pulled is more likely about 2.5mm.

Wizcrafts,

I think the knots would be even larger. The top thread is forming a loop with two thread thicknesses being pulled up. And that loop is pulling up the bobbin thread that has two thread thicknesses being pulled up into the leather.

So there will be four thread thicknesses making up the knot.

With 554 thread that's 0.128", about 3.3mm even without taking into account thread stiffness.

Dan

Edited August 22, 2015 by dbusarow

[DrmCa]

Was at the machine dealer today and he showed me Singer 144 (if I remember correctly - it's a 30" or so long arm walking foot with a boat outside foot installed) that according to him takes size 30 needle and can saw 4 layers of 10 oz leather with 554 thread.

He also said that size 28 should be enough and that I am welcome to come by any time with thread and leather samples and he would let me sew on that Singer.

I only had 2 tiny pieces of leather 3/4x4" with me and he said those are too small.

[Uwe]

If you're looking for a modern, state of the art machine that does what you're asking with a little more versatility than a sole stitcher, consider the Durkopp Adler 969 H-Type cylinder bed or the Durkopp Adler 967 H-Type flatbed. The 969's material handling specs are wicked with a price tag to match.

[Uwe]

I decided to actually measure a stitchline I made with size 415 bonded polyester on my Adler 205. In real life, the 415 thread is indeed very close to 1mm in thickness. If it's the visual you're going for, the size 415 might be all you need. The 441 and Adler 205 specs are similar, so a 441 might be able to handle 415 thread well enough if you sew slowly.

[Uwe]

Another photo of the size 415 bonded polyester thread stitch line:

[DrmCa]

Uwe,

Your thread looks very similar to mine in diameter, at least to my uneducated eyes.

I am getting roughly 0.9mm but considering it a 1mm thread as the caliper is squeezing it ever so slightly.

What size needle are you using with that?

[Uwe]

I use either 200Nm/25 or 250Nm/27 size needles with my 415 thread from The Thread Exchange , depending on the presser foot and material I sew with. I'm pretty sure this particular sample was sewn with a size 25 needle.

[Uwe]

I once made a little video sewing some samples of thick bridle and vegtan leather with a special ridged presser foot, using 415 thread and a size 27 needle.

You can see the video here:

[Trox]

Was at the machine dealer today and he showed me Singer 144 (if I remember correctly - it's a 30" or so long arm walking foot with a boat outside foot installed) that according to him takes size 30 needle and can saw 4 layers of 10 oz leather with 554 thread.

He also said that size 28 should be enough and that I am welcome to come by any time with thread and leather samples and he would let me sew on that Singer.

I only had 2 tiny pieces of leather 3/4x4" with me and he said those are too small.

I had such machine before: Singer 144-305 (30" free space to the right of the needle) It is a triple feed upholstery class machine with a XXL bobbin, with a 20 mm. Foot lift. It was designed to sew door panel for cars and such, it sewed vinyl and leather on to wooden plates. It was used on military tents and such. It even got an medal for its 2WW effort used by the US army. It handles thread size ticket 8 (Nm) or Tex 350 without problems, I never tried anything heavier. However, this is not a heavy leather stitcher, it has a vertical rotating hook and is classified as an super heavy upholstery machine. A heavy leather sticker has a shuttle hook design, that ables it to work with heavy thread tension. 4 pieces of 10 Oz will be about 16 mm thick. You can get the machine to penetrate that thickness of leather, with a strong motor/reducer. But pulling a stitch in it, no I do not think so. It will start skipping stitches long before that thickness because of the hook design. It's a great machine, but do not mistake it for an leather stitcher.

Tor

[DrmCa]

Thank you for the info!

Not exactly 305, but it is in the same league. The one I looked at did not have a wheel in the middle, Just a round bulge up top. I cannot find a picture of the same machine after at least an hour of total googling, so it's 144, but which model is still a mystery as the dealer is adamant there is no 2nd part of the model number.

[Trox]

Thank you for the info!

Not exactly 305, but it is in the same league. The one I looked at did not have a wheel in the middle, Just a round bulge up top. I cannot find a picture of the same machine after at least an hour of total googling, so it's 144, but which model is still a mystery as the dealer is adamant there is no 2nd part of the model number.

Mine had that extra hand wheel on the arm, I found an old picture of it. Adler made the same machine called 220 and of course Juki would not be any different LG 158. There are later models of them too, like the Singer 144B8BL-30 (-10 -20)

http://industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/singer/144b.htm

Both Adler and Singer made these for years in different arm length, 10" 20" and 30". Here is the black war horse the US army could not do without: http://industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/used/used-singers/144w.htm

Here is a model like mine ,without the extra wheel.

http://industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/used/used-brochures/144w.htm

These lang arm machine is very expensive new and can sell for much used too. If you need one you got to pay. On the other hand, it can be difficult to sell too. It's to big for most people, it weight like a ton. These perform best on upholstery material, tent and so on. It's no leather stitcher. However, if you want to sew canvas on trailers, tarpaulins and such. There are no better machine for the job, it has a monster bobbin.

I hope this info answered some of your questions.

Tor

[DrmCa]

The pictures in your 3d link is of the machine I looked at.

I was not considering buying it exactly for the reasons you mentioned - it's too big and too heavy and I already ran out of space 2 machines back.

But it is still good to know. Naively I thought that a big machine with a huge bobbin means it could stitch heavy leather, but you and others on this forum put me straight and I genuinely appreciate you sharing this valuable information.

Just curious: what does the mid-arm wheel do?

Edited August 31, 2015 by DrmCa

[Trox]

Hi, the mid wheel is a the hand wheel, it's only a pulley on the back. You got to have extremely long arms to reach a conventional hand wheel on the back. I bought that machine very cheap, just for that same reason; it was to big to handle. Anyway, I traded it in a cylinder bed that I sold again. The result was I got ten times the money I paid for it and that's not bad. If you get it cheap and have the space for it, sooner or later somebody need one and will pay you good money for it. Remember, such stretched machines cost four times a normal one. However, storage cost money too.

Tor

[Darren Brosowski]

The shuttle on the 144 class is not going to handle anything heavier than #345 and that is pushing it.

At most I would run 207 through them on a regular basis and 277 on top.

Unfortunately the industry is dominated by dealers full of bullshit who know nothing about true heavy sewing. There are a small number of specialists who know what they are talking about and they are pretty much all sponsors on this page. Talk to them before wasting your money on a machine that will not do the job.

[Trox]

The shuttle on the 144 class is not going to handle anything heavier than #345 and that is pushing it.

At most I would run 207 through them on a regular basis and 277 on top.

Unfortunately the industry is dominated by dealers full of bullshit who know nothing about true heavy sewing. There are a small number of specialists who know what they are talking about and they are pretty much all sponsors on this page. Talk to them before wasting your money on a machine that will not do the job.

Sorry mate, I cannot agree with you on that:) I have own and used this machine (144W-305 picture in my post #19), it can take up to needle size (Singer 27= metric NM 250).The needle system is 7 x 3, that's the same length as a 794 needle I am using in my 441. My machine sewed polyester thread tkt 8 ( tkt 9 is tex 350 in the same thread) that means that tkt 8 is even heavier than that. I used a needle 230 for that (Singer 26). So that means this machine will run Tex 415 without problems. And that is also stated in its manual. I have never tried this myself, because I could not get that heavy thread size here in Norway. The previous owner used it in production and it was set up with that same thread size; tkt 8. It sewed that all day long, that size is well in its comfort zone. And make no mistake, this is a monster of a upholstery machine. Nevertheless, that does not make it a leather machine, they have shuttle hooks. It was often used in the car industry, sewing vinyl and upholstery leather true wooden door panels. Anyway Darren, I see your point; dealers often tell you anything to sell a machine.

Tor

[ke6cvh]

Hello group,  This is a really old thread but I want to add some information.  I have used a US made braided polyester thread that is size 415 and size 277 (bobbin).  I contacted the manufacturer over a technical question as I discovered an issue with it.  They said they are making it in USA proudly and as long as sources for the fiber don't dry up they will source the fiber in USA.  If forced they will only source overseas and still braid in USA if supply is no longer available.  I put it on my thread stand and it twisted hence the reason why I contacted. With the braided stuff it is stronger than regular equivalent sized thread and is not sensitive to right/left twist requirements.  However when feeding off a regular thread stand from the top it will twist up.  The answer is to feed off side and let the entire spool turn as it unwinds to feed the machine.  They have tan/brown/black/white waxed/bonded.  Same seller below is selling gun holsters so must be using them successfully with their biz and it is obviously listed for leather work.  However, something I want to try is an 8 braid (that makes it a round braid coming off a maypole braider) UHMWPE fishing line.  I just ordered some rated at 80lbs and color dark grey with 0.5mm.  Using Bob's chart that puts it on a size 23 needle which is capable of many of the machines that would be used for wallet leather etc. that max out at size 23 and the size 207 is 0.508mm so this will be ideal.  The 42lb stuff is barely smaller in diameter than ticket 30 so would be a good candidate for the bobbin in a machine like a Singer 112w-139 compound feed sewing wallet type leather.  These types of lines are much stronger than polyester or nylon and UV resistant unlike nylon with much greater abrasion resistance than even the best of nylon but the Achilles heel is very high heat temperatures.  If I wanted max bang out of smaller threads on my Singer 112w-139 I believe this 8 braid fishing PE (UHMWPE) line is the way to go.  Here is the link for the USA made stuff but I will try the 8 braid 80lb PE fishing line and am fairly certain it will be amazingly strong.  I might try to figure out a better smaller size for bobbin as well. Best regards, MIke     https://www.ebay.com/itm/Braided-Poly-Thread-Tan-Size-346-Waxed-1-4-lb-for-leather-upholstery-and-more/192776703116?hash=item2ce2630c8c:g:J24AAOSw~FJZMIK2:rk:1:pf:1    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Goture-500M-Braided-Fishing-Line-8-STRANDS-Super-Strong-Saltwater-Fishing-Line/202066283470?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=502064358039&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649