Seminal Books On Industrial Sewing Machines?

[medion]

Hi all,

I've recently purchased a couple of old industrial sewing machines for some projects - a Juki straight stitch and a very old Singer 269 bartacker. I am discovering that information (particularly on the Singer) for these machines is quite minimal online - even finding machine mechanics where I'm located who can work on machines like the Singer are few and far between - I seem to have discovered that there is a bit of mystical art around industrial machines, particularly in countries where the majority of textiles manufacturing has gone offshore, and knowledge and skills around these machines begins to dwindle.

So, I suppose I should learn how to keep these machines going on my own! Therefore I was wondering if anyone had any special recommendations on seminal books which discuss the maintenance and inner workings of old industrial sewing machines? Other than learning on the job, how did machine mechanics learn? Did machines like the Singer 269 come with maintenance books? Are there any companies around the world which might keep stock of old manuals and maintenance material?

Out of curiosity, is there anyone out there who knows anything about the Singer 269W141 - what was its initial build purpose (general bartacking, drapery?), and when would it have been built?

Thanks so much!

-m

[Wishful]

Two good resources are the navy repair manual, for some reason i cannot post a link so google "navy sewing manual " and it will come up.

Also ismacs.net has a lot of good info and many manuals.

[dikman]

Welcome, medion, I too have discovered the paucity of information about old Singer machines. I managed to find a parts listing and a user manual for mine (51W59) and that's it! Fortunately, the user manual had the most critical bit of info - timing the hook. The rest of it I figured out by cleaning and oiling it. I can tell you that the W in the model number indicates it was built in the US. Some say that any Singer can be identified as to its build date, but this doesn't apply to the W series at least, as the records appear to be pretty patchy.

[medion]

Welcome, medion, I too have discovered the paucity of information about old Singer machines. I managed to find a parts listing and a user manual for mine (51W59) and that's it! Fortunately, the user manual had the most critical bit of info - timing the hook. The rest of it I figured out by cleaning and oiling it. I can tell you that the W in the model number indicates it was built in the US. Some say that any Singer can be identified as to its build date, but this doesn't apply to the W series at least, as the records appear to be pretty patchy.

Thanks!

I've been meddling with my 269 for a bit now trying to get the stitch right. I've got the right width and thickness, but underneath the stitch it's a terrible mess. I have a feeling it's maybe not picking up the bobbin correctly... I also think something is also too taught somewhere, as it is often tearing the thread apart rather than cutting it. Unless perhaps the cutting blades aren't working? I have a feeling I've gone as far as I can and need to find a mechanic unfortunately, I'd really like to get some sewing done after hauling these machines around trying to get them to work (I have two 269s, with one now more or less working).

[dikman]

I have discovered that getting the thread tension is critical. The bobbin tension, in my experience so far, has to be a lot "looser" than I would have expected. I spent a lot of time just turning it by hand, watching the bobbin and the hook in operation, and experimenting with thread tension.

I also had a problem recently with something catching individual strands in the thread, cutting it and the thread partially "unravelling". Turned out that I had the hook timing wrong and the hook was catching the strands.

These old machines aren't actually that complicated - but you have to spend a bit of time becoming familiar with their operation.

Just found this parts list, I don't know if it's of any use -

http://www.supsew.com/KnowledgeBaseArtefacts/Images/Singer%20269W.pdf

Edited September 7, 2015 by dikman

[medion]

I have discovered that getting the thread tension is critical. The bobbin tension, in my experience so far, has to be a lot "looser" than I would have expected. I spent a lot of time just turning it by hand, watching the bobbin and the hook in operation, and experimenting with thread tension.

I also had a problem recently with something catching individual strands in the thread, cutting it and the thread partially "unravelling". Turned out that I had the hook timing wrong and the hook was catching the strands.

These old machines aren't actually that complicated - but you have to spend a bit of time becoming familiar with their operation.

Just found this parts list, I don't know if it's of any use -

http://www.supsew.com/KnowledgeBaseArtefacts/Images/Singer%20269W.pdf

Do you have any info/docs on how to time the hook? I played with the tension, and I'm getting a better stitch but at the end of each tack when it cuts the thread, something must be out of time because it's just breaking the thread rather than cutting it - almost as if the blades are not cutting.

Also the underside of the tack seems a bit unreliable, as if the thread is fraying - I'm using a nylbond M60 polyester thread.

It also seems very materially fickle - with one grade of webbing I can get a pretty good stitch, with another (or if folded over into two pieces) it all needs to be readjusted.

[medion]

I've actually managed to get the old thing working quite nicely - looks like it was primarily to do with tension, although on the odd tack it still does mis-cut my thread, I will need to work on that issue another day: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bow03zjpqkc1ya8/Photo%208-09-2015%2011%2008%2049%20am.jpg?dl=0

[dikman]

That stitch looks pretty good to me, considering you're sewing webbing!

That document I mentioned has info on setting the hook timing - although it says "parts list" it has more than that in it. I had a quick look as I was curious (it's different to my machine). I can't help with the cutter, as I'm not familiar with them, although mine had an automatic cutter which cut the excess material from the seam as it was sewed - I removed it as 1) I didn't need it and 2) it was one more complication I could do without!

As long as the machine is working mechanically, virtually all problems, in my experience, will be due to thread tension and/or hook timing. Spend the time to make sure the hook timing is correct,

Edited September 9, 2015 by dikman

[medion]

That stitch looks pretty good to me, considering you're sewing webbing!

That document I mentioned has info on setting the hook timing - although it says "parts list" it has more than that in it. I had a quick look as I was curious (it's different to my machine). I can't help with the cutter, as I'm not familiar with them, although mine had an automatic cutter which cut the excess material from the seam as it was sewed - I removed it as 1) I didn't need it and 2) it was one more complication I could do without!

As long as the machine is working mechanically, virtually all problems, in my experience, will be due to thread tension and/or hook timing. Spend the time to make sure the hook timing is correct,

Yes, not bad! It is quite fickle though - if I change the webbing type I have to start my thread tension adjustments again to try and get it working. But it is what it is!

For the hooking timing - do you mean the section on 'To time the shuttle' or 'To time the cam feed' ? I can't see a reference to hook timing per se in that PDF.

[alexitbe]

Yes, not bad! It is quite fickle though - if I change the webbing type I have to start my thread tension adjustments again to try and get it working. But it is what it is!

This is the same for all sewing machines. You have to do a test run first to get the tension correct if you change the material you are sewing... I never knew that until I started and even now, I forget to do it a ruin what I was working on...

[dikman]

I may have to take back what I said earlier. I read the whole document this time (I stopped at the shuttle timing last time) and it's somewhat more complex than mine! The bits to check are the needle bar adjustment and the shuttle timing - the shuttle timing adjustment is quite different to mine. Check them out, but DON"T adjust anything unless you know it's out of whack. If you feel that they need adjusting, I suggest you put marks first on the various bits so that you have a reference where they are now. I didn't, when I got stuck into mine, and if I had I may have saved myself some grief. Photos may be a good idea too.

And yeah, when you change materials the tensions may require tweaking slightly (I figure webbing may be particularly problematic, due to the varying thickness i.e. material and "holes"?).

[medion]

Just an update: I ended up getting a mechanic in to look at my machine. He actually got it working reliably by removing bits: We removed the knives, as they were having issues cutting the high tensile nylon bonded thread I'm using. We also removed the lower thread retainer.

The mechanic additionally adjusted the bobbin thread, and this made a very visible difference in stitch quality. The machine is now reliably stitching, the only draw back is I need to cut between stitches - no big deal, as I don't run a production factory. Also loosening up the thread on the tensioner improved the stitch - I'm now able to punch through three and even four layers of webbing.

Just posting this for any other antiquarians who are interested in getting the Singer 269W / 269W141 going.

All in all pretty happy with my $150 bartacker!

[gottaknow]

I still have several 269's in service in the factory. They are a true workhorse for sure. There are numerous tricks to making them run smoothly, not listed in any book. I was fortunate to apprentice under two very seasoned mechanics. Parts are still available, though they are usually made in China. Glad you got it working!

Regards, Eric