Adler 205-374

[llucas]

I am a hobbiest gun belt and holster maker, but arrived at the place where I needed a sewing machine. After the last gun belt and many hours of hand stitching I swore I would never do another one without being able to machine stitch it.

Totally sick of hand stitching belts, today I picked up an old Adler 205-374 cylinder arm machine that was used by a feedshop to repair saddles. The walking foot lift lever and foot pedal was frozen up. I took the faceplate off, sprayed with chemtool, cleaned it up and lubricated. The walking foot lift lever and pedal now work fine. I threaded it up and tried it, but of course it needs some more work as everything tangled up and ended up in the bobbin area. I will finish cleaning everything up, lube everything and attempt to adjust it. Anyone know where I can find a service manual for this model? Also, assuming it will return to good working condition, was $500 a good price? Apart from being rode hard and put away wet, all the tolerances seem tight. Also, I read on the forum that Weaver has a dvd on operating the Adler 205-370 series. Anyone have a copy they want to sell?

A few more novice questions related to sewing machines: what size thread and needle for gun belts and holsters using this Adler? The gun belts are approximately 1/4" thick of two layers of 8-9 oz leather. Same for the pancake holsters. As a novice I have been hand stitching using waxed thread from tandy. I picked up some 270 nylon thread from a friend, but this seems kind of thin compared to the waxed tandy thread I have been using.

Great forum.

Edited November 13, 2015 by llucas

[Uwe]

You can download PDF versions of the Durkopp Adler 205-370 Owner Manual and the Durkopp Adler 205-370 Service Manual from my website.

I haven't seen the Weaver DVD, but heard comments that it doesn't go into great depth. Reading the manuals will get you started on the right path.

I've used size 415 bonded polyester thread without any trouble using size 27 needles. I made a little sewing demo video using this combination some time ago:

I took the bobbin area apart for a different video on changing out the presser foot:

This machine uses little spacers for different needle sizes to adjust hook-to-needle spacing. Make sure you use the right combination to get good results (e.g. use the "250" spacer for the 250Nm/27 size needle). The spacers are available from Weaver and other retailers here at LW or online.

$500 is a total bargain for that machine if it is serviceable.

I have a few presser feet and accessories for the machine in my ebay store and I'm finalizing work on a flatbed table attachment, just in case you're looking to spend all that money you saved with your initial purchase.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Uwe

[llucas]

Uwe, thanks very much. Very helpful, indeed. I have a question related to your video. The walking feet leave an impression in the leather. Is it possible to adjust the tension on the walking feet to eliminate the impression while still properly feeding the material? I will take a look at your eBay link. The walking foot setup on my machine is, I think, called a harness walking foot.

I should note again that, while mechanically inclined, I am a complete novice about sewing with a machine. And, is there a video or guide to changing the spacers for the different size needles?

Edited November 13, 2015 by llucas

[Uwe]

The presser feet in the belt video have special ridges at the bottom that help press the thread into the leather. The harness feet are skinny and have a very small footprint - they're more likely to leave marks, just like high-heeled shoes on a wood floor. Other feet styles with bigger flat/smooth bottoms are available and yes, you can adjust the foot pressure (see manual for details) to dial in the least amount of pressure that still holds your material securely in place. There'll be a fair amount of trial and error involved to find settings and accessories that work for your specific application.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Uwe

[llucas]

Uwe, again, thanks very much.

[George3]

Are you threading the machine correctly?

Make sure the thread goes through the take up arm, if not it will give you a birds nest underneath.

How do I know this

[llucas]

George, it is entirely possible I have not threaded it properly and that it is tensioned improperly. I ran the thread the way the sewing machine mechanic suggested. I downloaded the manuals Uwe provided plus one from the Duerkopp Addler site. In one of them there was a diagram for threading. I'll double check that, thanks. Eventually I am sure I will figure this stuff out. Right now I feel like a little kid trying to figure out how to drive an earthmover, lol.

[llucas]

Uwe, in your video at 1:37 there are two shims illustrated. In taking apart my 205-374 to give it a through cleaning I discovered I do not have these two shims. in the Adler parts manual these are 205 15 016 0 10, 2mm and 205 15 017 0 10,3mm. Is that a problem? Also, the spacer on my machine is a 230 rather than a 250 and the needle is a 27. Again, is this a problem?

On another topic, I sincerely hope you post a video on how to time the Adler 205-370. I am sure more than myself would love to see that. Your videos are extremely well done.

Edited November 14, 2015 by llucas

[Uwe]

The big C-shaped distance rings in the video are used to adjust hook-to-needle distance. The number of shims required for proper hook-to-needle distance will vary from machine to machine. Your machine may be fine as it is. You may need to add some shims to get the hook-to-needle-distance just right. In hook timing position (needle has risen 4mm from bottom) "the hook should be as close as possible without touching the needle." The distance rings are available from Weaver. You probably only have to do this adjustment once, because it's very unlikely to go out of whack with normal use.

The little spacer shims with the numbers on them are used to adjust needle guard position relative to the needle. The number on the shim corresponds to the needle size in NM (Number Metric). You'll need a full set of these little spacers (also available from Weaver) if you plan to switch needle sizes. The needle guard actually IS supposed to touch the needle without pushing it out of the way. If the needle guard is not touching the needle, it's not protecting the hook. If it's pushing the needle too far away from the hook, it will cause skipped stitches. If you're off by just one size, it's probably not a super big deal or problem.

The Adler 205-370 uses needles up to Singer size 28.

Here's how to match up the sizes (based on Singer info):

Singer size = Number Metric

Singer 23 = 160 NM

Singer 24 = 180 NM

Singer 25 = 200 NM

Singer 26 = 230 NM

Singer 27 = 250 NM

Singer 28 = 280 NM

I do plan on making an Adler 205 use and service video over the next month or two, once I get comfortable making the adjustments myself.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Uwe

[llucas]

Uwe, again great information. Thanks very much. I look forward to your adler video. I downloaded the service manual for the 205-370 and it has the timing instructions. But I have to order a few parts. A couple of distance rings, needle guard spacers for 200, 230 and 250 and 25/200, 26/230 needles (I have an ample supply of 250/27), etc. The screws that holds the outer retention ring for the shuttle/bobbin assembly will need to be replaced. as you look at the cylinder arm there are two screws that hold this assembly in place. the left screw hole is slightly stripped. As the parts are under tension and only these two screws hold it together I must figure out how to repair this to achieve even tension. Tap the hole one size up and use the proper size screw for the new hole (with head size remaining the same)? On this machine the two existing screws are different lengths, but the parts list show them as identical. Also the door on the bobbin/shuttle assembly is missing and needs to be replaced. After all that I have to figure out how to tension the thread and bobbin.

Edited November 16, 2015 by llucas

[shoepatcher]

llucas,

When you call Weaver Leather, ask to speak to Allen Burkholder. He is the expert on the 205. Has worked on them for over 20 years.

glenn

[llucas]

llucas,

When you call Weaver Leather, ask to speak to Allen Burkholder. He is the expert on the 205. Has worked on them for over 20 years.

glenn

Glenn, thanks for the contact. Great help on this forum.

[llucas]

Uwe, would the left side presser feet and smooth needle plate/smooth feed dog you are selling on eBay be more suitable for finished leather than the harness makers set-up I am using now? The refurbishing of the Adler 205-374 is coming along nicely, but I am finding the harness makers needle plate, grooved feed dog and walking feet leave pretty severe marks and impressions. I have adjusted the presser feet knob on the top until it is almost all the way extended, but the harness makers upper walking foot and the lower harness makers double feet leave deep marks. Indeed, you can see on the bottom serrations and an impression where the feed dog drops below the surface of the plate. It definitely does not look good. I use both pre-finished leather and veg-tan for my holsters and belts. I can make the current set-up work with veg-tan, but it badly mars the pre-finished leather. If you wish to communicate privately my email is: drllucas@aol.com

Edited November 24, 2015 by llucas

[Uwe]

I don't know exactly what kind of harness feet you are using now so it's hard to judge. A close-up picture of your harness feet would be useful.

In general, all the harness feet I've used had tiny footprints (compared to standard feet) which is much more likely to leave impressions on leather (just like high heels on a wood floor.) It's mostly about pounds per square inch, and a tiny footprint is definitely is not your friend if your goal is not to leave an impression. My harness feet had about one-tenth the footprint of regular presser foot and therefore about ten times the pressure per square inch compared to a regular presser foot.

Unless you're actually making a horse harness from tough bridle leather or really need to get super close to a buckle or sew along a sliver of an edge, a bigger/wider presser foot combined with a smooth throat plate and feed dog might be a better choice. But you won't know for sure until you try it out. The KH-205M throat plate and feed dog are the smoothest setup I've seen for the Adler 205-370 by a good margin. My standard throat plate has fairly strong serrations and fairly sharp edges (and a few battle scars from the previous owner.) The KH-205M throat plate and feed dog setup is not exactly cheap, but it's really well made and you can return it if it doesn't offer a significantly improvement over your current setup. The KP205LN/RN (or even the standard double-toe) presser feet have big and smooth feet bottoms (compared to harness feet) which again is good for minimizing pressure per square inch and potential markings.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Uwe

[llucas]

Thanks for the info, Uwe. The plate, feed dog and walking feet on this machine are pretty rough. Here are a few photos.

Edited November 24, 2015 by llucas

[llucas]

Here is the beastie. Believe it or not, this is AFTER I cleaned it up, lol:

Edited November 24, 2015 by llucas

[llucas]

Here is what it is doing now that I have it working. This is on prefinished 8 oz double layer. The adjustment on the presser feet using the top knob is almost all the way out. Still unsatisfactory. on the back side where the machine is reversed you can see it scrapes the leader pretty badly -- and this is after I filed the sharp edges off the needle plate and feed dog. Pretty rough. Sorry the photos are so blurry. I did this with the iPhone on zoom. Couldn't get my hands still enough.

This is what it does to veg tan:

By the way, the frayed stitch in the veg tan photo is from a problem I am trying to solve wherein the thread frays a little after it reaches the guide hole on the needle rod shaft and as it passes through the needle eye. Perplexing.

Edited November 24, 2015 by llucas

[llucas]

Christmas gift-buying cash flow now in the past, I finally decided and ordered a few parts from Allen at Weaver (new throat plate that is flatter than stock, smooth feed dog,timing device, oil tubing and wicks and more nylon thread). Still more to research and buy later: servo motor, speed reducing pulley, smooth large toe double presser foot, smooth center presser foot, no mar outside presser foot for stitching the edge of belts, etc. One step at a time a few parts at a time -- fixed income is a bear. The machine should be acceptably functional by next week. Thanks for all the help on this forum. I will post photos of the project and how it sews as it develops.

[llucas]

More challenges (also given in another post): the new throat plate and feed dog from Weaver were installed and the feed dog moved back in the sewing cycle below the throat plate instead of 1mm above it, marring the leather on the back side. Allen at Weaver Leather diagnosed the problem immediately. The feed dog carrier had almost a millimeter of wear on the surface that is lifted by the cam. This was the reason the feed dog could not be lifted the required 1mm above the throat plate when traveling back in preparation for the next stitch and was the source of the damage on the back side of the leather pictured above. The cam shaft and feed dog carrier are on their way to Allen at Weaver Leather where the feed dog carrier will be repaired and ground to match the cam. Hopefully, problem solved. Allen at Weaver Leather has amazing knowledge about the Adler 205 series and terrific repair resources.

[llucas]

I received a call from Allen at Weaver Leather this morning. He was able to repair the feed dog carrier and the cam is fine! The repair only cost 6% of what a new feed dog carrier costs! Hopefully in a few days I will be making good stitches with no damage to the back side of the leather from dragging against the throat plate on the back stroke.

Edited January 26, 2016 by llucas

[llucas]

Ok, as a complete novice to leather sewing machines and stitching leather with them, I am learning far more about this Adler 205-374 than I ever wanted to know, lol. I installed the repaired parts (feed dog carrier and the unchanged cam) from Weaver and adjusted the end thrust of the cam to where the needle guard was in the right place in relationship to the needle and the needle to the shuttle hook. I managed to get it timed per service manual specs. Now I am facing an issue that was not there before: while sewing the stitch length changes. For about six to ten stitches it runs about four stitches per inch then changes to five stitches per inch, and occasionally six stitches per inch. to me as a novice it seems the tension is right as it buries the knot in the middle of the leather. Could the tension be too tight, even if "balanced"? The stitch looks good on the top except for the change in stitch length. The bottom stitch not so much.

There is another new problem that was not there before the repair: when I reverse to backstitch the stitch length doubles. It hits the holes but goes to every other one. I am using 346 nylon on the top and 277 nylon in the bobbin. The thread is also from Weaver and is new. It seems to be much better thread than I was using before. No problems with fraying or coming apart.

There is an adjustment for the 205 series wherein the middle foot is adjusted to the average thickness of material being sewn -- I have not attempted that one yet. The pressure on the double foot is adjusted to a modest pressure -- does it need more pressure? Is the leather slipping under the feet? If it is slipping, wouldn't there be greater inconsistency between the length of the stitches instead of five to six inches where the length is the same?

Suggestions?

Here is the top stitch about 4 per inch, also showing back stitching skipping every other hole

This is the top stitch showing changed length. The groove was intentional and meant to be a stitching groove that I missed, lol.

Here is the stitching on the back showing the start and the reverse backstitching:

This is the back showing the change in stitch length:

The back doesn't look as good as the top, and I am not sure why it is fracturing the leather where the needle punches through. It is older leather -- or does the needle need to be changed? I am grateful for the help I have received on this forum.

Edited February 2, 2016 by llucas

[Uwe]

Does the Twilight Zone Theme play while this is all happening? That exact double stitch length in reverse is just too freaky. Make a video of that. The only real explanation of that would be a stitch length mechanism that's WAY out of adjustment.

Is your feed dog movement correct after re-installing the cam? Check feed dog movements without any material and verify they make sense, both forward and reverse.

Test sew a piece with NO thread, forward and reverse. If stitch length still changes it's clearly not the thread that's causing it.

Does the material slip a little when the needle is above the material? That's the only time it really can slip. Perhaps the outer presser foot is not holding the material down with enough force to keep it from slipping. Thread tension does play into this to some degree. If thread tension is too high it may yank the material towards the needle a little as it's pulling the knot tight and pulls more thread from the spool.

If the material is not slipping, perhaps the transport mechanism or linkage is slipping when the going gets tough or reverses. Make sure all the screws and bolts involved in the stitch length mechanism are tight. Does the stitch length lever move when this happens? That level should stay wherever you put it and it should not move as you sew.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Uwe

[llucas]

Thanks Uwe. Today was the first day it was up and running after the repair. I wondered about the outer presser foot pressure -- in the first two photos you'll notice there are no marks from the outer presser foot, whereas most of the photo samples I have seen on leatherworker.net have at least mild impressions. The feet on this machine are harness-makers feet and I assumed I would have to buy smooth and bigger feet to minimize that issue. So I was happy today when it made no marks. I'll put more pressure on the outer presser foot tomorrow and see if it helps. Perhaps it is slipping in conjunction with the thread tension. I have had a hard time observing the actual mechanics while sewing samples as I still have a clutch motor that speeds up beyond my ability to sew (servo and speed reducer pulley will be my next purchase). But I will try to be more observant and report what I see. I did check the only screw on the stitch length lever I could see and it seems firm.

Edited February 2, 2016 by llucas

[Uwe]

Just turn it over by hand to make stitches until you figure out what's going on.

When I make major changes or adjustments I always check everything out first with hand-turned stitches before I even attempt to run it under power. A lot of bad things can happen under motor power that won't happen if you first turn the wheel by hand and observe, listen and feel how the machine works.

[dikman]

I'll second that! Whenever I fiddle with a machine I always turn it by hand first and make sure it can sew properly before powering it up. (It's scary when a needle hits the needle plate under power!!!).